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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Of course they wouldn't, but it didn't do them any good either.

    Sacrificing a game is completely anathema to most pro sportsmen. Not to mention you'll still have to be putting out a decent chunk of starters anyway so then you are also just highlighting the "specials". The whole thing just seems toxic to a good squad environment to me. A bit of mix and match, sure, but once you display you are obviously not concerned about the outcome of a match at the world cup you are asking for trouble.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,316 ✭✭✭✭phog


    It's a game of rugby in the RWC not a league where one loss may not matter at the end of a season



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Leinster literally did that a few weeks ago and before they lost no one said boo.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I said boo. I said it was a **** terrible idea and I stand by it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    Fair enough. I thought it was a bad idea as well just on the basis that it was a knockout game.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Different competitions. But also the exception that proves the rule. Even Cullen dead enders on here acknowledge that he made a mistake there and the season ended up a compete failure. Losing to Munster didn't do Leinster much good.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    We're relying a lot on Sexton not only staying injury-free (he's averaged 59 mins a game in the 10 games he played this season... he had twice as few mins as the previous season), but also maintaining a higher standard of form than the other challengers.

    Ordinarily you'd say he won't have a problem with that... but he will be 38 and has played relatively little rugby all year and won't have played in almost 6 months. He better hit that ground running, no more than anyone else I guess.

    No matter what way you paint it, it's not ideal. I still wouldn't be wrapping him up or resting him during the tournament, take each game as it comes.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭ulsteru20s


    I think this depends on how you see our chances. I think if Sexton, Porter and Ryan stay fit, we could win with almost any other injury, as long as there aren’t too many.

    I’d be willing to fly pretty close to the sun to get sexton to a 1/4 final and fit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    For obvious reasons it might make sense to make an exception of Sexton, as I've pointed out. But I'd also like to see the other tens with as many minutes under their belts as possible heading to the 1/4s.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    I think there will be no first 15 player playing against Romania and that we will try our utmost to beat South Africa. Against Scotland I think they will decide based on the pool dynamics going into that fixture, if we are already through then no point playing anyone we desperately need for the playoffs.

    So the choice then becomes:

    A) Put out a full strength team against both Tonga and South Africa, absorbing injuries as they come. (I would advocate for this option.)

    B) Put out a rotated first 23 for Tonga with any rotated starters on the bench, and a full strength team against South Africa. (Greater risk against Tonga, and more pressure on players to perform against SA if undercooked, but trade off is enticing for minimising chances of key players getting injured while keeping the option to spring players off the bench early if Tonga cause problems. I expect this option to be chosen and to be well in control with 30 minutes to go and will empty the bench then.)

    C) Put out a fully rotated team against Tonga and save the starting 15 for SA. Big risk of being undercooked as well as losing to Tonga. (Can’t see this option being considered.)



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  • Registered Users Posts: 17,154 ✭✭✭✭Neil3030


    So I just played around with some combinations there, from a 33 of (players in bold are the best 23, that will face SA in round 3):

    You can shuffle them around to make:

    Went with two scrum-halves to bring Kilcoyne in to make sure Porter only has to play a single game in rounds 1 and 2.

    Stronger squad for Tonga, as the team comes together for the big one in round 3.

    Bulk of the SA 23 get both a start and a bench in the first two rounds. I'm giving Ryan, Porter, Doris, POM, Ringrose, Lowe and Keenan only a single start each, mostly given injury history or because they play in positions we don't have huge depth. Sexton gets a single bench spot for Tonga.

    This also mostly keeps the primary units from the SA 23 together - front row, locks, back row, midfield and most of the back 3.

    I'm giving Crowley the start for both warm ups. Could be Byrne if Faz decides he's the backup 10.

    Only having done this, I realise that we have no specialist 7 to backup vdF, so I put Prendergast there. Against Romania it won't matter too much.



  • Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭Rugbymad2020


    No there isn’t.only one team who has won the word cup has lost a group game and that was Sa in 2019 losing opening game against NZ,



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    My mistake. The SA win obv recent in my memory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭Rugbymad2020


    group A and Group B can’t meet in the final.semi final is the furthest those teams can go with playing each other.final will be winners of semi final 1 which is group A and B and semis final two is group C and D.very easy way to the final for the likes of England or Australia



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    My guess at the RWC 33-man squad and what the 23 will be for each pool match:

    1-15: Porter, Sheehan, Furlong, Beirne, Ryan, O’Mahony, Van der Flier, Doris, Gibson-Park, Sexton, Lowe, Henshaw, Ringrose, Hansen, Keenan.

    16-23: Kelleher, Healy, Bealham, Henderson, Conan, Murray, Crowley, Aki.

    24-33: Herring, Kilcoyne, O’Toole, Baird, Coombes, Prendergast, Casey, Byrne, McCloskey, O’Brien.

    V Romania: Fully rotated as much as possible.

    Kilcoyne, Herring, O’Toole, Baird, Henderson, Coombes, Prendergast, Conan, Casey, Byrne, O’Brien, McCloskey, Aki, Hansen, Crowley.

    Bench: Kelleher, Healy, Bealham, Beirne, Van der Flier, Murray, Ringrose, Keenan.

    V Tonga: 3 options,

    A) As above, full-strength 1-15, and 16-23, (i.e.Porter..Aki).

    B) Rotated full-strength 23,

    Healy, Kelleher, Bealham, Henderson, Ryan, Doris, O’Mahony, Conan, Murray, Crowley, Lowe, Aki, Henshaw, Hansen, Keenan.

    Bench: Sheehan, Porter, Furlong, Beirne, Van der Flier, Gibson-Park, Sexton, Ringrose.

    C) Fully rotated as much as possible.

    Kilcoyne, Herring, O’Toole, Baird, Henderson, Coombes, Prendergast, Conan, Murray, Crowley, Lowe, McCloskey, Aki, Henshaw, O’Brien.

    Bench: Kelleher, Healy, Bealham, Ryan, O’Mahony, Casey, Byrne, Keenan.

    V South Africa: Full-strength.

    V Scotland: 3 options, depending on pool results. Might have to go full-strength if not already through, could rotate if through already, and could rotate heavily if through and not worried about guys being match-fit for the quarter-final.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Not sure what you’re saying here, because of course a Pool A or Pool B team can meet a Pool A or Pool B team in the final, if they win their semi-finals against the teams coming from Pool C and Pool D. A Pool A or Pool B team cannot meet a Pool A or Pool B team in the semi-finals. Seems you have it backwards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    A piece of trivia related to the above,

    England, 2007, and France, 2011, both lost pool matches and still made it to the final, only to lose to the same team that beat them in the pool game, South Africa and New Zealand respectively.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    France were robbed in that 2011 final, I remember being furious. Dusatoir was immense that day, hadn't he something like 30+ tackles?

    Edit: it was 38 tackles he made but not that day, was in WC 2007 against them



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,801 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    I’ve almost the same 33, except opted for Casey as a third scrum-half over Nash as an extra winger. I’d use Ringrose and Henshaw as wing cover instead, with O’Brien and Crowley as fullback cover.

    I’ve also put Prendergast at 7 versus Romania.

    We have the exact same 23 for SA. Though slight numbering difference, Ryan 5 would be tight side lock, Lowe 11 left wing, Hansen 14 right wing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 325 ✭✭mickey15ie


    Are the squad currently staying in Carton?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,507 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I suspect Farrell will use Byrne as number 2 ten with Crowley as his backup where Sexton isn’t starting and probably Crowley subbing for Sexton too.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Ya, 2011 was the year France lost 2 in the group stages and nearly won the thing.

    Leaky mentioned it above but Dusatoir was unbelievable.

    And in true France fashion, I think they had something of a player revolt during the tournament.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    I doubt that in any RWC fixture since 1987, have we fielded a team with no first choice player starting and I'd be shocked if it happened this time either. Even simply for the fact that some guys are going to need game time. We've only three warm up matches and at least one, if not two, will be used to get a look at some of the wider squad guys fighting to get a spot in the 33. Even against Russia in 2019, we had Sexton, POM, Earls, RK and Ringrose starting.

    We're not going to go into the SA game (who will be fully match fit after 6 tests across July and August) with front liners having played about 1-2 games in about 4 months.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I can't see us bringing both Gavin Coombes and Cian Prendergast - and certainly not a scenario where we only bring 2 scrum halves or 4 back three players to accommodate that.

    Coombes and Prendergast play largely the same positions roughly, and they're positions where both are third choice at best in (at 6 we have O'Mahony - Doris as first and second choice and at 8 we have Doris - Conan as first and second choice). Ryan Baird appears to be ahead of both in the pecking order as a blindside / lock hybrid, and if we need another second row it'll be one of Joe McCarthy or Kieran Treadwell.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,631 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    I don't see why you wouldn't bring 3 scrum halves with the increased squad size



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,941 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Romania is the only game I see us rotating for. Every other game we'll go pretty much full strength. Although I do think there's something to be said for saving Sexton until SA.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,823 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Nit pick, but South Africa in 2019 were the first team ever to win the RWC having lost a game in the pools.

    Every other winner had a 100% record.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    I can see us rotating in some players for the Tonga game. Bealham starting ahead of furlong. Henderson ahead of Beirne and Conan ahead of Doris. Probably Aki ahead of Henshaw. Start Murray as the better defender and release Gibson-Park on a tired Tonga defense with 20 minutes left.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,004 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Adding to that trivia, England also lost to the ABs in 1991 and then made the final.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 10,449 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Good chance Bealham is our starting TH I think as an aside.



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