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Green Party or Greenwashing Party?

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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    I tell you what, they don't have to disband, they can just rebrand as the 'D4 Party', or any other name of their choosing.

    Just so long as they don't label themselves as a green or environmental party, I'm happy for them to do as they please.

    At least there'll be space then for a genuine environmental party within the political sphere.

    Does that work for you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    There’s lots of space for new parties if you want to set one up. Why don’t you put your fabulous theoretical platform out there yourself and see what kind of support you get?

    Great to see another Green achievement on public transport.

    What is your problem with this development? Not liking the W nomenclature perhaps?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Sure, I'll do that 👍️

    But we still can't have this lot calling themselves 'Green', not with the kind of abysmal failure they support.

    I'm very happy to see these new little bus routes.

    I'm disgusted with how far off our climate targets we are, and that this failure gets a 'Green' tick of approval.

    Does that work for you?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    The price after grant of €2,400 for this 10 panel (4.1kWp) system would be €5,575. Please note Electric Ireland are renowned for been one of the most expensive suppliers for Solar PV historically.

    Plenty of other companies offer similar up front and also over a term so the reduction in your bill should cover a lot of the monthly cost.

    Battery are currently at an all time peak and based on most mathematics will never pay for themselves over their life span. Especially when you consider FiT which is available from all suppliers now at different rates depending on your agreement

    No need to debate any further, all information has been provided at this stage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Not everyone has 5 grand to spare or can take on that debt.

    But regardless.

    Let's go mad and say everyone in the country put a 4kw solar array on their roof by 2030.

    Still not gonna get us substantially nearer the targets.

    We need to get houses to a B2 level.

    Unless they were already quite close to that... that solar won't do it.

    Is that what you don't understand?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You seem a bit needy and desperate for my approval. You don't need my approval, and you're not going to get it for a dishonest plan that is designed to make it less likely that environmental targets will be achieved.

    If you were actually interested in achieving environmental targets, you'd be rounding up loads of votes for the Greens to get them more seats and more negotiating power in the next Government. But instead, you'd doing everything you can to make it less likely that there will be a strong environmental focus in the next Government.

    I wouldn't read too much into one single opinion poll, but the Greens got a nice jump in last week's poll, so it looks like most Green supporters don't agree with you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    In terms of solar pv, I have provided the information because you provided incorrect information, I suggest anyone who is interested in getting solar pv to do some research, as this thread has shown the amount of incorrect information on the web is alarming

    We don't need to get houses to any rating, the rating is only required if you are using SEAI grants.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    That B&A poll was a massive outlier. It looked so off I'm surprised it went forward for publication.

    It had the Government at a combined 47% and Labour at 6 also. Absolute tosh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Doubling the GWP vote wouldn't make a difference, they're out of touch and can no longer be called an environmental party.

    Their appeasement approach just doesn't hold up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    We need to insulate homes and heat them while using less co2.

    I appreciate BER ratings aren't a perfect measure of that, but they are indicative.

    And this gov has set a target of bringing 500,000 homes to a B2 rating by 2030.

    As great as solar is in some ways, it won't heat your house in winter.

    Post edited by MegamanBoo on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    And what political campaigns have you succeeded in, just for comparison?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Nobody said solar would heat a house during the winter, it can help of course with IR panels but that depends on cost case.

    BER ratings are just required for SEAI grants, even outside of the government targets, achievable or not, people should be carrying out constant upgrades to their houses when possible to reduce cost and increase insulation. I don't need the government to tell me that.

    Anyone I know has either built houses to a very high standard or has been upgrading existing houses for years long before the government or popular culture was telling everyone they had to. It just made financial sense to invest money into insulation etc because longer term it would reduce heating/electricity bills. Nothing to do with a BER rating

    Plenty of houses in Ireland have been upgraded or built to a high standard without ever getting a BER rating. Unless the person is selling them they won't get one either.

    Government can set whatever targets they want, most people haven't a clue what a BER rating is and how to achieve it. As I said already, this thread is an excellent example of the lack of understanding of BER ratings and the retrofit program.

    Everyone in Ireland should be looking to improve the quality of their own home, that can be from small upgrades to large. They can do that either via the SEAI grant system, DIY or pay someone outside of grant scheme. Of course it shouldn't be forgotten that you can get free upgrades done depending on your situation.

    Also it should be noted the upgrades of houses all over Ireland is the responsibility of all political parties and not just the Green Party. Every single party should be helping people who don't understand how to or what they should do and of course help people with the free upgrade system when they are entitled to it.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    if an FF/FG/SP wonk was reading this thread now, what takeaway would they have from it?

    A - 'we should push further to the green end of the spectrum to capture more of the green vote'

    B - 'look how well being green is going for the GP, we want the electorate to hate us too'

    C - insert your own.

    basically they'd have to engage with (some) voters who are not interested in a party being 'green' unless they're absolutely balls-out green. the kind of voters who would prefer 'hurlers on the ditch' political parties.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think what is most concerning is that Fianna Fail Minister Darragh O'Brien who is Minister over the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage which has responsibility and control of the national retrofit program is apparently not a green enough member of the Green Party because he is not getting enough houses retrofitted fast enough.....or something

    I wonder is Darragh aware of his membership of the Green Party



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,690 ✭✭✭Tenzor07




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    damned if they do, damned if they don't.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    I wonder how long it took them to change the article from 'Green TD flies off to xxxx' to 'Green TD pays out to take ferry to xxx'.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Damned if you do, damned if you don't

    It really doesn't matter how they travel, folks will find something to moan about



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Ireland is an island the last time I looked, our politicians need to have meetings with other countries for trade etc. We need to keep these relationship and zoom doesn't cut it before someone pipes up.

    We need our politicians to fly, End of Story. If people are saying stupid comments about TD's flying then those people should be pulled up on it, if we start to lose jobs in Ireland because our politicians are not engaging with other countries, the same people will be the first ones to start moaning about it.

    It is totally ridiculous to complain about a TD flying to meetings etc. Plus the TD here who isn't flying should have a long hard look at himself, how much time is he wasting doing this travel when he could be actually doing some work for the country.

    It's costing us a lot more than 400 euro to have him messing around for a few days on travel instead of an hour



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,690 ✭✭✭Tenzor07


    It's costing us a lot more than 400 euro to have him messing around for a few days on travel instead of an hour

    this reminds me of the one where Ryan drove to Limerick and took his bicycle out of the car to cycle around the corner to a meeting.

    Greenwashing sh*te so the rest of us peasants will be fooled into thinking they'll practice what the Green's pretend to preach..


    You can bet that when this "ex" Pilot looses the next election that he'll be back in the Air flying his own aircraft again..



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    I'll deal with the rest of your argument when I have a chance but in the meantime can you tell me what misinformation about BER ratings has been shared here?

    It seems to me your issue is actually more to do with BER ratings being used within the schemes you're defending than anything posted here.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i was going to make up a stupid story about something hypocritical ryan or someone else from the GP did, to parody how credulous people can be about the supposed behaviour of GP members. but i won't, because it'll probably end up like that 'you swallow eight spiders in your lifetime' one and i'll see it repeated on boards in six months time as if it's true.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,506 ✭✭✭MegamanBoo


    Ok, what misinformation has been spread about them here so?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭circadian



    Solar goes towards heating my home in the winter but I realise that I'm currently an outlier in having a heat pump. New builds, however, are increasingly being sold as air tight units, with solar and heat pumps. I would agree though, insulating homes goes a long way in reducing Gas/Oil/other usage. Solar also helps towards reducing the need for gas to run the grid. Today, we are currently running at 64% gas for the grid, which is insane given the weather we are having and do tend to have from spring until autumn.


    https://www.smartgriddashboard.com/#all


    If the government were serious about this they'd offer the carrot rather than the stick for people to move this direction. The grants are all well and good but the majority of installers just increase their quotes so this needs to be dealt with as well.


    Here's an example, and not an extreme one either.

    I got several quotes from One Stop Shops for a full retrofit. Prices ranged from 87k-100k for an 85sq/m semi-detatched.

    This covered;

    Wrapping

    Installing a stove

    Heat recovery ventilation

    Insulation of suspended timber floor (tearing out the kitchen apparently)

    Heat Pump

    NONE of them included solar.


    This is what I done by myself;

    Solar and battery

    Wrapping

    HRV

    Stove

    Underfloor Insulation

    Heat Pump

    It cost me approximately 55k.


    Regardless of what people think of climate change, this work has already started to save me significant amounts of money considering the cost of everything has risen since completed. Like I said, if the government want to be serious about this, there needs to be a large scale retrofit initiative and something has to be done to ensure contractors aren't taking the piss, which at the minute, they are. Water collection for showers/toilet/etc is another thing that can be very easily acheived and at a reduced cost and in all honesty we need it. I'm amazed we haven't had a hosepipe ban yet this year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Except that it never happened, but let's not let the facts get in the way of a good story.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You know it's possible to work while on trains and on ferries?



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    It actually exposes the weakness of their arguments, complaining about a Green TD NOT flying!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Oh I know it is possible but broadband etc is awful. Trying to take even a phone call on one can be difficult on a train. Plus the time to check on/off etc is a lot longer.

    Taking a one hour flight with maybe 2 hours at max in airport beforehand is a lot easy and more sensible than all of the messing. What exactly is the boat running on as well?

    This is what I found quickly, Im sure if you check around you will find another study which says the opposite but by the time you figure in the trains etc. Did he actually save any CO2? I doubt it


    https://www.treehugger.com/what-is-greener-boat-vs-plane-emissions-5185547#:~:text=Ocean%20Acidification,a%20phenomenon%20called%20ocean%20acidification.

    A 2011 case study of cruise ships in Dubrovnik, Croatia, estimated that the average CO2 emitted per person, per mile on a medium-sized 3,000-passenger cruise ship was 1.4 pounds.15 By that calculation, a round-trip cruise from Port Canaveral in Orlando, Florida, to Nassau, Bahamas—a popular, 350-mile transatlantic route frequented by Royal Caribbean International, Carnival, and Norwegian Cruise Line—would equal about 980 pounds of carbon emissions per person.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    The problem here is instead of the TD telling the mob they are wrong. He has bowed down to the mob and made the situation worse. he has cost the taxpayer more money, wasted days travelling and at the end of it probably generated more CO2 than the airplane flight in the first place.

    This little video actually is a good description :-)




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