Irish Property Market chat II - *read mod note post #1 before posting*

It could well be the jaw of unintended conquences. If the tax is 80% it is definitely an opening for avoidance. It will be tempting for investors that can afford it to buy at near agri value and put money under the table to the owner.

The vacancy tax will be determined off this so it will be minimised until the investor want to sell on because increased value. It will be very hard to collect such a tax.

Add to that will it survive a constitutional challenge in all case. Take a commercial fulltime farmer where a section of his farm is rezoned and it effects the viability of his farm it removes his right to earning a living

This has got to be one of the most outlandish tangents of this vast thread. It would be galacticly stupid if any politician to even broach the subject of charging an 80% value tax on farmers, just because the council rezoned their land.

Is it that outlandish? The tax is due to come into force fairly soon, albeit the overall rate of tax is planned to be 50% instead of 80%.

Do you think it reasnoble for the state to claw back some of the increased value from rezoning?

Is it the 80% rate that you are opposed to, would kind of agree with you there as the law of unintended consequences would apply. Having a farm other business broken up would be incredibly stressful

You cannot financially cripple a farmer just because he/she wants to farm the family land, based solely on public servants changing the zoning on their farm.

CPO’s involve the State paying market value (plus other amounts which can be claimed) to the owner, this is the polar opposite to your proposal that an 80% tax be paid by the owner on the value of the land when the council zones it. If the land was CPO’d after zoning, the costs to the State would rise as the market value rises.

Last year 170k people were directly employed in agriculture, when you take into consideration family members and those who indirectly benefit from the sector, the fact that many politicians and councillors have farming background, and one of the strongest lobby groups in the State, the prospect of legislation being introduced that would heap and enormous tax burden on a farmer, who wants to continue farming on land owned for generations, that has been zoned seems so outlandish, it’s actually laughable. Timing belt I usually agree with most of what you post, but an 80% value tax on land to be paid by farmers, even if they have no intention of selling/profiting from development, seems a huge departure from your usual good sense.

Of the 170k less than 1k would be possible impacted and when you take into account farm land already bought by developers waiting to be rezoned it drops to a handful.

you have a hang up with paying tax that yet again you miss the point. When land is CPO’d for motorways it is done at market value of agricultural land plus a bit extra it’s not CPO’d as zoned land. Any land rezoned that a landowner wishes to sell would still get the agricultural price and 50% (if that’s what is being proposed) of the difference between the sale price and agricultural price) that would be a higher price than most land CPO’d for a motorway.

Also let’s not forget that there is loads of land already zoned for residential and if it’s not being built on then the rezoning of new land (after tax) will mean that the value of it drops. This along with a robust vacant land tax means that land hoarding will not be attractive and badly needed housing should be built.

Who is to say only 1k would be affected? The other 169k would think their time will come.

So, you want the owner to pay tax on the zoned value, but the CPO value would be the pre-zoned price?

This is silly.

Silly is assuming that farmland in the middle of nowhere would be impacted. Of the 170k you quoted how many are bordering a large town or city?

with regards the tax it is calculated on difference between the market value of Agricultural land and the market value of residential land. How hard is that to understand?

Anyway we will need to see what is in the bill that is brought forward come autumn.

If it is accompanied by an aggressive vacant land tax on land zoned as residential then yes any windfall tax could be paid at time of sale.

if there is a vacant land tax that is full of loopholes (which will probably be the case) then doing so at time of sale would mean the land would still be hoarded.

A question? Surely someone has to apply to have agri land rezoned for residential? Or are the councils deciding to rezone an area at will.

I didn't think one would apply tbh, I thought it was to do with proximity to towns, villages etc whether it's in the county development plan..

Shit if I knew you could apply, I'd buy the cheapest plot I could find in Leitrim and have it rezoned high density residential/commercial and charge appropriately...but I don't know the ins and outs of it

I've highlighted some interesting areas of the article below:

"HOUSING PRICES IN the second quarter of 2023 were 0.5% lower than a year ago, according to the latest Daft.ie House Price Report released today.

This marks the first time since mid-2020 that asking prices have fallen in year-on-year terms."

"Cork and Galway cities saw larger falls in year-on-year terms, of 3.3% and 2.1% respectively."

"“But while demand has weakened, the post-Covid recovery in supply also appears to be weakening, in both new and second-hand segments. Thus, while this year is unlikely to bring any substantial increases in housing prices, underlying issues stemming from housing shortages will persist.” "

I'm sale agreed on a doer upper and there was no other interest in it. Got outbid in a ridiculous bidding war for a property in a similar condition in the same location only 9 months prior. I've been keeping an eye on the market in case something better comes along as we haven't signed any contracts yet but to be honest there is extremely little. Prices being down slightly is all well and good but if there not much coming up for sale it's not of that much use to anyone.