Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

Peregrinus · 22-06-2023 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120747829#Comment_120747829

I don't think it matters how much autonomy they have. Tesco Ireland is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Tesco UK, so any profits they make accrue to Tesco UK, so Tesco UK has a motivation not to damage or destroy the business of Tesco Ireland by making it impossible for Tesco Ireland to buy stock from Tesco UK. And similarly for Tesco operations in other EU markets.

Legally, it's the importer - in this case, Tesco Ireland - who is responsible for ensuring that goods imported are compliant with all applicable laws. But as a matter of reality, importers must rely on the oversea supplier - in this case, Tesco UK - to make it possible for them to demonstrate compliance. For instance, if imported meat needs documentation to show that it was slaughtered, packed and handled in a way that makes it compliant with EU requirements, Tesco Ireland cannot generate that themselves; they must rely on Tesco UK to supply the documentation required. Iceland Ireland's problem was that Iceland UK couldn't or wouldn't or at any rate didn't supply that documentation.

In the Tesco situation, Tesco Ireland can have all the autonomy they want; they still rely on Tesco UK to supply the necessary documentation for any goods that they obtain from Tesco UK. They do, of course, have the option of sourcing goods from suppliers within the EU, but Iceland Ireland also had that option. Replacing all your supply chains is a challenge for any trading company — the more so when you have a strong brand identity like Tesco. Some customers shop at Tesco Ireland in part because of the various lines that Tesco Ireland carries

Sam Russell · 23-06-2023 8:16am

The Irish side would be advising the UK of the requirements, I would think.

Tesco UK would listen and realise they must comply. Tesco are a very professional company, at least in that regard.

Iceland UK perhaps not. When Iceland Ireland took over the Irish side of Iceland, they had packages carrying huge price messages in GB£ offering the items at about 20% below the price to be charged in the Irish store, which caused huge reputational damage, causing many shoppers to stop shopping there. Obviously, the UK arm were not able to or not prepared to adjust the packaging to not carry prices. So not surprised they did not bother getting the custom entry correct.

Peregrinus · 23-06-2023 8:34am

Iceland positions itself at the budget end of the grocery trade and, in a trade where margins are razor-thin anyway, that requires aggressive control of costs. So, yeah, I think a company like Iceland, with the market position it has, would be particularly challenged by something like Brexit, which adds new layers of compliance, costs and delays to its business without creating any countervailing benefits or opportunities. It may make sense for Iceland to withdraw from the retail market in the EU, or from attempts to service that market and the spinoff of the Irish stores in February, followed by not being arsed to provide them with EU-compliant supplies, may simply have been a hamfisted part of a more general exit from the export-to-EU trade.

Tesco's turnover is nearly ten times bigger than Iceland's; they'd have more resilience to shocks like Brexit.

rock22 · 23-06-2023 9:18am

A worry that this Iceland story highlights is the danger that the German stores, Lidl and Aldi, might also decide to withdraw from this market.

When both stores entered the Irish market originally they carried a lot of German and other continental products and brands. Over time that has switched to sourcing products from UK and Ireland. It is noticeable that , rather than being offered the range of products from their continental stores, we are now offered a limited range of products from the UK stores . Clearly both Lidl and Aldi's business model sees Ireland as part of the UK market, with all the dangers for the future that holds.

In other news, it appears it is now illegal to fly the EU flag in England

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/london-mayors-office-banned-from-flying-eu-flag-on-referendum-anniversary

Sam Russell · 23-06-2023 9:20am

Of course, the Iceland story might be repeated in the case of M&S, but I have no information on this.

M&S have, since the Brexit vote, built a distribution in Ayre in Scotland to serve the Irish (inc NI) which can only be seen as bit of poor planning at its kindest.

I think they should do a deal with Musgrove to get them to handle all their food sales in Ireland (inc NI) as it absolves them from a lot of this high cost distribution. Whether Musgrave would prefer to keep away, fly under the M&S label, or under the Supervalu brand, but I am sure they can handle all issues themselves.

[Edit: You can check the prices M&S in Ireland vs the Prices they charge in the UK by looking them up online. I think they are about 20% higher, but obviously not totally uniform. That would be taking the VAT difference plus the currency difference.]

breezy1985 · 23-06-2023 9:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752677#Comment_120752677

I don't see Lidl and Aldi being similar to Iceland. For one a number of UK companies have constantly shown total ignorance to the notion that Ireland is a separate country which is something I have never picked up on from those chains.

Also Lidl (I don't know about Aldi) make it very clear they understand Ireland is the Irish market. It's marketing and branding makes this clear where as Iceland and M&S are often selling Ireland the "proudly British" marketing.

UK chains also can't seem to get to grips with the fact that the Irish market has a higher standard when it comes to groceries ( I assume it's only the sheer size of Tesco keeps it competitive) so I'm not surprised when one fails.

Sam Russell · 23-06-2023 9:57am

Well, Lidl and I think Aldi have all-Ireland distribution centres. Lidl have three, Mullingar, Newbridge, and Charleville. I believe these supply NI. Aldi have one in Naas, and Mitchelstown. Neither appear to have any in NI.

M&S have an all Ireland distribution centre, but it is in Aye in Scotland.

I am not sure how Sainsbury and Asda manage the movement of groceries from GB to NI, and whether they label them differently. I have seen Sainsbury marking their beef in NI as British with a heavy emphasis on the Union jacks on the label. Given that much of the beef sold in GB is of Irish origin, this may be misleading.

Then we can move onto MacDonald marketing, and they claim Irish beef only in Ireland, but in NI - I do not know. In the GB, they used to claim their beef was British and Irish.

Sam Russell · 23-06-2023 10:00am

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/23/london-mayors-office-banned-from-flying-eu-flag-on-referendum-anniversary

I see the UK Gov are moving to prevent the EU flag being flown, but it is OK to fly any other flag.

Mind you, the PM of the UK can be any religion in the world but not Roman Catholic, which is constitutionally prohibited.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-06-2023 10:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752677#Comment_120752677

That's not the case with Lidl and Aldi at all. Most of what they sell is own brand and sourced from the EU. They may or may not be sourcing branded groceries via the UK but that's really only a sideline for them.

I've never seen an item in Lidl or Aldi with a union jack on it but you'll commonly see that in M&S. I've never been in an Iceland!

@Sam Russell Aldi don't operate at all in NI.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-06-2023 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752862#Comment_120752862

What a poxy bigoted little shithole that country is turning into. It is genuinely very sad to see.

Although I think you are a bit mixed up, the monarch is explicitly forbidden from marrying a catholic. There is no written constitution and afaik no legislation which even mentions the role of prime minister, it exists by convention, but open to being corrected here.

ancapailldorcha · 23-06-2023 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752964#Comment_120752964

I think you're being a bit harsh. A lot of what's happening is largely overstated in the media and hundreds of thousands of people annually are still keen to come here.

I'm not sure about the specifications of the role of PM but there is a written constitution, it's just not codified the same was as the USA's or Ireland's. What you're denigrating here is a constitutional settlement that has endured and evolved over the course of the past thousand years (depending on where you draw the line). This settlement provided a higher degree of stability and good governance than did the absolute monarchies and revolutionary governments of continental Europe. It's tragic that it's now being cynically undermined by venal and talentless Conservative MP's who would rather virtue signal and stir up culture war than actually govern. The system assumes good behavior (Peter Hennessy's Good Chap Theory of Government) and worked well until we reached this point.

That said, Brexit has been detrimental to the country as a whole. Apparently, there was a Brexiter-only Question Time last night. I may or may not watch it but this sort of establishment tendency to pander to and stoke the emotions Brexiters has led us here. I think we need serious reform of the constitution since we can't trust politicians to be reasonable and honest any more. For me, the UK has become something of a depressing place in the past few years as the government has seized ever more power, sowed division and opened inequality solely for short term gains.

breezy1985 · 23-06-2023 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753043#Comment_120753043

I don't agree that it is in any way the system of government that has lead to it's stability compared to other countries in Europe.

Their not losing any major wars is the reason the monarchy and Westminster survived.

As for PM I don't know what legal status it has now but there is a commonly quoted idea that only the chancellor has an official position and the PM is just a term that is used without any legal position.

Enzokk · 23-06-2023 11:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753043#Comment_120753043

Seen some clips from QT yesterday, Brexiters saying the current state of the UK has nothing to do with Brexit at all and audience members spouting rubbish about regulations. If you watch the clips you can see why Labour is not going within a mile of even mentioning rejoin or even soft Brexit. There will be a cohort of people that will vote in the next general election that will not take kindly to being told they were wrong for believing in Brexit. How big this cohort is, I cannot say but they are still out there and they still believe the lies that were, and are, being told.

Hermy · 23-06-2023 11:23am

I had a brief look at that Question Time episode last night with an audience made of of Leave voters (rather than Brexiters) and it was sickening to listen to. It's bizarre that despite all that's happened since the Brexit vote there are still those who are utterly convinced that somehow Brexit can deliver all the fanciful things the Leave campaign promised them it would.

Meanwhile RTE News is reporting that according to a survey published by the Tony Blair Institute 18% of Leave voters now believe it was wrong to leave so there's hope yet!

ancapailldorcha · 23-06-2023 11:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753274#Comment_120753274

Exactly. The liberal-remain people such as myself aren't numerous enough to be a sufficiently powerful cohort. We're also far too concentrated in the cities, especially London. That gives the rural Brexiters much more political importance, even now on the seventh anniversary of the accursed referendum.

Sam Russell · 23-06-2023 11:37am

The question for the Labour Party is 'Do they lose more votes by being soft on a hard Brexit or by flying the kite of Re-join the EU?'

Put like that, the former option is safer for Labour. Re-joiners would vote Labour because they have nowhere else to go, and at least there is a likelihood of a rethink. However the Brexiteers, particularly the Labour types, have already displayed their option of going full Johnson and wanting an oven-ready solution.

breezy1985 · 23-06-2023 11:47am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753369#Comment_120753369

Added to the calculation is the fact that most remainers are in the cities where Labour will probably win the seat regardless. The exceptions are places like West London who will never be Labour anyway.

ArmaniJeanss · 23-06-2023 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752961#Comment_120752961

Hmmm, check out their ice-creams the next time you are in Aldi, particularly but not limited to their round tubs (the Ben&Jerry size tubs but Aldi brand).

Union Jack flags galore and proudly declaring on top that it's made with British cream. I found it quite jarring, and somewhat surprising that such a big operator hadn't seen fit to ask for different packaging on product destined for Ireland. Like I'm not hardcore anti-Brit so won't lose any sleep over it, but definitely indicated to me that someone in Aldi doesn't quite get that Ireland isn't part of the UK.

Example product.

American Style Chunky Chocolate Ice Cream 500ml Gianni's | ALDI.IE

breezy1985 · 23-06-2023 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753774#Comment_120753774

I wouldn't call that "Union Jacks galore" no win fairness.

Certainly nothing like when I bought an electronic moneybox in M&S Dublin that only worked with sterling. Or being too lazy to cover the English prices on products.

ArmaniJeanss · 23-06-2023 1:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753928#Comment_120753928

One Union Jack on side, one on top and a few references to British cream. Yeah, I probably have stretched the definition of 'galore' but it really stands out when the entire freezer cabinet has UJs pointing out from 100+ tubs of ice-cream.

On the grounds that everything on a product's packaging has been carefully designed to catch your eye/entice you to purchase, and this is supposedly 'Specially Produced For: Aldi Stores (Ireland) Ltd, PO Box 726, Naas, Co. Kildare' - well it does seem strange to me.

pixelburp · 23-06-2023 2:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120752795#Comment_120752795

This is a good point. Lidl and Aldi are very noisy about serving the local community; that's not to say Marketing will have any say if HQ decided to look at its markets, but both outlets have been pretty aggressive and intentional about Ireland. And as you say, food quality standards are very high in this country, so it worked in Lidl/Aldi's favour to push the local produce to a larger degree, above the Continental "brands".

Whereas any occasion I go into M&S Food you see its tone-deaf approach of promoting "British" produce, across shelves that are often conspicuously (near) empty ... all showing a different tack - one that's bordering on contemptuous for the Irish market. Watching staff trying to bulk out their shelving to make them look less barren is always a sight.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-06-2023 2:53pm

That's an odd one. I don't buy ice cream though 😉

rock22 · 23-06-2023 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120754808#Comment_120754808

If you look, you will see plenty of evidence that Ireland is just treated as an adjunct to UK. Lidl had custard plastered with a Union Jack. Their beer carries a link to 'drinkaware.co.uk

It is not everything, and it is subtle, but there is definitely a change since Brexit. Both stores seem to have decided to consider Ireland and UK as part of the same market and separate from all other EU countries. (Rather than thinking of Ireland as part of the EU market). And inevitably Ireland is the smaller component,

23-06-2023 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753369#Comment_120753369

"There go my people. I must find out where they are going so I can lead them"

So the same playbook Labour have been running throughout the entire Brexit debacle. As if they have no ability to influence public opinion, and are just innocent bystanders caught up in events that are out of their control. When one side of the debate is allowed free reign to spout whatever they want, and the opposing side keeps their mouths shut for fear of losing votes instead of challenging them and laying out an alternative argument, the result is foregone conclusion.

Or another, blunter description of Labour's Remain/Rejoin policies: "We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas"

Sam Russell · 23-06-2023 3:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120753193#Comment_120753193

The Prime Minister is actually also First Lord of the Admiralty.

[First PM was Pitt].

breezy1985 · 23-06-2023 3:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120755082#Comment_120755082

I think because it's Brexit and most of us here hate it there is a bit of blindness to the idea Labour can be anti Brexit.

Being anti a successful referendum change is not a good policy to take up. Labour are not keeping their mouths shut about how bad the Tories are doing but if Labour go "rejoin" then all available opportunities to criticize the Tories go out the window because the Tories and tabloids will have their dream distraction that will dominate everything.

Remain/rejoin is dead on arrival and it's fantasy to think otherwise.

pixelburp · 23-06-2023 3:55pm

I suppose at this juncture, Labour just want to avoid ruffling any feathers considering in theory they're the government-in-waiting; it's craven and spineless but presumably with no actual Election date in sight, they wanna keep their ideological powder as dry as possible. Especially given the Tories appear to be doing very well in self-destructing, stability and an utter lack of surprise might be Labour's greatest appeal right now.