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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Off the top.of my head. Ban religious instruction in the classroom at the expense of other kids. State teachers teach kids, and the ones that DO want religion can be taken out if the class and taught separately. Especially for sacraments.

    Also, ban (or enforce the ban) on preferences to kids from certain religious background.

    Just because you own the building doesn't mean you're excempt from obeying the law.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    You're stretching the definition of ad hominem to suit yourself.

    I referred to you as an outsider and qualified that reference and even stated that I wasn't trying to be rude.

    And that is why you're in my block list. Always looking to stir things up and create animosity where it doesn't exist.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Fine, but I'd wager the housing crisis and the health service are just two issues that I can think of off the top of my head that are of greater importance right now to most people in this country.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    People can worry about many different things, often at the same time.

    Must we only try to work out two issues at once as a people? Not to mention the two you chose to highlight have been the worst hit in recent memory with no sign of relief at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,523 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    People worrying isn't the issue.

    Choosing to place ridding our education system of any ties to the Catholic Church above dealing with housing and health issues would be catastrophic for any government.

    As things stand we all want the ties to the church to be severed but we also acknowledge that we have more pressing issues to deal with first.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,523 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Housing and healthcare supply are evergreen problems. As soon as you solve them the population grows and the problem arises again.

    Ridding Ireland of the state establishment of the Roman Catholic Church however…



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You can hide behind prioritisation if ypu want, but they'd be effective.

    In any case, the health service is always in crisis and the housing problem won't go away any time soon. We can't just ignore everything else.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Evergreen problems?

    I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and suggest you don't understand the gravity of the housing crisis here in Ireland.

    How would you solve the problem of the Catholic Church's ownership of these school buildings? Do you believe they could be shooed out of the country with no legal recourse?

    Fighting the Catholic Church in court is hardly a battle this country needs. They've been essentially neutered by peoples apathy towards them, we don't need to embark upon a moral crusade that has no winners.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,523 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You don’t understand. Am I doing this right.

    Sure one way to solve homelessness is not stop funneling rent money to Rome or anything.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Hide behind?

    So in your opinion should getting all vestiges of the Catholic Church out of Ireland be the main priority for the Irish government and by extension Irish society?

    Forget building houses and improving hospitals we need to get the Catholic Church out once and for all.

    I'm sure all the homeless people and people on hospital trollies are afforded the same sort of moral absolutism you're so keen for us as a nation to embrace.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,523 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    By the way what fight is there for the RCC in the courts if Ireland amends the constitution with an Establishment Clause?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Saying we have more pressing issues to deal with is a sure fire way to never deal with that issue.

    The church still owe a fortune in unpaid compensation to their various victims. The sweetheart deal the govt made should never have been made (the church were ordered to pay €1.3bn, but the govt said they’d cover the vast majority. The church had to pay €128m and only paid €85m.

    Thats the time land should have been seized to pay for the compensation instead of the government letting them off. That land could have been turned into social housing, to help deal with one of the bigger issues.

    Its fair to say that I do hate the church. Not the vast majority of the people within it, but the organisation itself. I think it is one of the most cruel, evil organisations on the planet, if I could kick out Catholicism from schools tomorrow, I absolutely would.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Enlighten me then.

    What legal apparatus exists to allow the Irish government to take ownership of these buildings owned by the Catholic Church?

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,523 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    What rights would the Catholic Church have to taxpayer funds with an establishment clause?



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    I'm in broad agreement with you but we've made our bed and we do have bigger fish to fry.

    And saying so doesn't mean the issue should never be dealt with, it just means there are more pressing issues on the table.

    It's easy for people not dealing with homelessness or not on hospital waiting lists to have the opinion that the Church is the biggest issue in the state.

    I'm not seeing any resurgence in support for the Church in this country, it's on its last legs, let's get ourselves in order before we start picking that fight.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Are you suggesting that the constitution of Ireland be changed to circumvent this issue?

    There are existing binding agreements in place with regards to these buildings.

    For reference the church would have built most of these schools at a time when the Irish state, still in its infancy and financially feable was unable to undertake the construction of such infrastructural projects as schools and hospitals, hence the influence of the church being introduced.

    The red tape and legal battles it would take to solve this issue wouldn't be worth the hassle and expenditure to the state.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    unfortunately I don’t think the housing crisis can actually be fixed, unless there is some way out there imaginative ideas, like mortgage forgiveness and the govt bailing out homeowners. Houses are just far too expensive. To build enough houses so there isn’t a shortage (social housing, new builds, renovating derelict properties etc), would mean massive amounts of negative equity. Nobody is going to vote for that, however well meaning they are.

    As for health… Where do you even start?! I suppose NOT spending over a billion on a new children’s hospital would be a good idea.

    Copy Austria? Move some outpatient departments outside of hospitals, to office blocks which are cheaper, and frees up more space in the hospitals for those that need in house treatment.

    Prevention is probably best, but then you run the risk of us becoming an even bigger Nanny State! I honestly don’t know what to do with our health system, it’s pretty bad at the moment.

    One thing that I imagine could be done pretty easily is the education minister to order all schools to only hold religious classes as the last class of the day so those that are exempt could go home early.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,523 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sure why not amend it? Just repealed the 8th not long ago. And establishment causes are not unconventional. The constitution pre-empts any lower legal arrangements.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    The Irish constitution has a plethora of references to God etc throughout it.

    We're not talking about a mere ammendment but rather a radical overhaul. Even conceptualising that requires a fvck ton of billable hours to all sorts of legal top brass who are already laughing all the way to the bank in this country.

    And if we have to look at who are bigger scourge in modern Ireland, the legal profession are far worse currently than the Church as it exists right now.

    Ultimately it doesn't feel like the juice would be worth the squeeze to boil it down to the shortest phrasing possible.

    Glazers Out!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You can hide behind prioritisation if ypu want, but my ideas would be fair and effective.

    In any case, the health service is always in crisis and the housing problem won't go away any time soon. We can't just ignore everything else.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    So are you suggesting that because housing and health are too hard to fix easily we should wade in and take on the Catholic Church without even the most rudimentary legal apparatus to make that happen it place?

    That's the problem with the left, all moral crusades and paranoid nonsense and no real actionable ideas that benefit anyone.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 DJoSullivan79


    Its fair to say that I do hate the church. Not the vast majority of the people within it, but the organisation itself. I think it is one of the most cruel, evil organisations on the planet, if I could kick out Catholicism from schools tomorrow, I absolutely would.

    This is exactly is what is wrong with the left in Ireland. They are so full of hatred for the Church that they'd throw the country into a financial abyss just to score a point. Yea don't understand let alone learn a single thing from history and view everything from the first day yea entered whatever social study course back to the year dot as some sort of medieval era where the skies were constantly grey, it dripped rain 24/7, women were raped every day and child abuse was rampant - all committed by white, slave owning, toxic masculine men.

    Anyone thinking that the Catholic Church in Ireland today presents a threat to Irish Society as a whole is fairly deluded to be frank about it. What fecked up the Catholic Church in Ireland was families shipping off their odd-ball sons and daughters to become priests and nuns where they could run rampant on vulnerable minors - that is on our great-grandparents generations' conscience through their naievety at the time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Nope - re-read the posts.

    I said you can't ignore every other problem by saying something else is a bigger priority. Problems need to be tackled simultaneuously.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    That kind of went off on an education tangent and I failed to stop it, so my bad on that one.

    But the point I was making is that the attitudes that are left over from the church's heyday are the threat - and you can see a lot of them in this thread. Left this, liberal that, progressive the other - but as soon as you try and pin down examples of what they mean, the go quiet and can't elaborate. People used to be able to fall back on "God said..." or "it's in the Bible", but the non-theists don't even have that.

    They are completely oblivious to the fact that they've simply plied their blind faith and ignorance into a different diety and have the same lack of logic or informed thought.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,738 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Problems need to be prioritised.

    If you feel your approach would work, then run for office under that banner and see how you get on.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,425 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    Hold on. You say above that the Church have lost most of their influence while a few posts ago you claimed they were so powerful that nobody would put them in the dock for the “murder” of 800 children.

    You have stated both positions. Which do you believe?

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Its not mutually exclusive to say that the church have lost most of their influence, which was vast, but there’s still enough remnants of power left to hold up the investigation into the 800 bodies found.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,425 ✭✭✭SafeSurfer


    That wasn’t the claim.

    The claim was that the Roman Catholic Church murdered 800 children and will not be brought to justice because of their influence.

    Do you agree with this claim?

    The report into the Tuam babies scandal can be found here https://assets.gov.ie/118565/107bab7e-45aa-4124-95fd-1460893dbb43.pdf

    Multo autem ad rem magis pertinet quallis tibi vide aris quam allis



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    I agree that they won’t be prosecuted. They were victims of massive neglect. There was never any evidence of pre-meditation, so murder charges couldn’t be brought.

    Thats my opinion.



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