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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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    #1412
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764833#Comment_120764833

    The Gardai and DPP felt a crime had been committed. The gardai didn't. So no it doesn't prove your point at all. But again you don't seem to know anything about Irish law either.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1413
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764725#Comment_120764725


    You’re not in any danger of falling foul of the proposed legislation for simply disagreeing with someone, nor are you in any danger of falling foul of the law for expressing an opinion which people find offensive.

    You’re also in no danger of falling foul of the proposed legislation for expressing your opinions about other people based on their weight, as weight is not being proposed as a protected characteristic. You’d be far more likely to fall foul of the general principle on Boards of “don’t be a dick”, before you’d fall foul of the proposed legislation tbh! “But I’m fat myself” is not a get out of jail card, pardon the pun 😂

    What isn’t a crime under existing legislation is to target people on specific grounds as laid out in the legislation, but that’s just one part. It also covers other issues which are admittedly more prevalent in mainland Europe and the US like holocaust denial and so on.



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    #1414
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764794#Comment_120764794

    You do.realise that legislation is amended and updated all the time?

    Laws change



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    #1415
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764845#Comment_120764845

    I have already said this but I was dismissed merely because I pointed to government TDs who said it too.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1416
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764694#Comment_120764694


    Being targeted on the ground of sexual orientation is what is being proposed in the Bill.

    There’s no suggestion in the statistics that the victims were actually homosexual btw, the statistics are based on the grounds for which the crime would be considered a hate crime.



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    #1417
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764863#Comment_120764863

    Laws do change. But what's legal is not always what's right.

    That's a fundamental axiom of law.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764843#Comment_120764843

    What crime?

    As you said, no crime could have been committed because the legislation didn't exist.

    When I did ask for the detail, you asked me to "ask the Gardai".

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764872#Comment_120764872

    What does "being targeted" mean?

    Legislation comes down to what words and phrases mean in the real world.

    Can you give an example of a crime that would be committed against gay people today, that isn't otherwise dealt with by extant legislation?

    In other words, what do you believe someone shouldn't be able to say to me today that they could say up to this point?



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    #1418
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764876#Comment_120764876

    You're not really actually showing any understanding of this subject at all. Incitement to hatred and hate crimes are 2 entirely different things yet you keep substituting them for each other in the discussion. Maybe read up on it. Come back when you actually know what you are talking about.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1419
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764887#Comment_120764887

    Nah, not at all.

    I've asked a relatively straightforward question: as a gay person, what should someone be criminalised for saying to me under this legislation, that they cannot be convicted of saying / doing today?

    As a gay person, I cannot think of any example. Not a single one.

    Because any example I can think of, happen to be already dealt with under existing legislation.



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    #1420
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764872#Comment_120764872

    I'm also going to echo another poster's question 'What does being targetted mean'? Here's why I'm asking that question.

    Would something like this be considered 'an attack' under the new legislation. The aim of it is clearly humour but he says to put 'quaaaaaars' into the woodchipper. Like with the sharkbait thing, there can be a very fine line between humour and something that is actually an incentment to violence or hatred.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3T56BXSpBc




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    #1421
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764940#Comment_120764940

    I talked about incitement to hatred

    You talked about hate crime as if it was the same thing

    I explained there is no current hate crime law

    I gave an example of the incitement to hatred act

    You started talking about hate crime again in relation to incitement to hatred

    You absolutely don't understand the differences between them.

    Come back when you know what you are talking about.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1422
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764876#Comment_120764876


    What does "being targeted" mean?

    Legislation comes down to what words and phrases mean in the real world.

    Can you give an example of a crime that would be committed against gay people today, that isn't otherwise dealt with by extant legislation?

    In other words, what do you believe someone shouldn't be able to say to me today that they could say up to this point?


    What do you think being targeted on the ground of sexual orientation means?

    I can’t give you an example of a crime that would be committed against gay people today, that isn’t otherwise dealt with by exetant legislation, which would be covered by the proposed legislation, because the victims sexual orientation is irrelevant. What’s relevant is the perpetrator’s motivation, and that’s why there are specific grounds being proposed, referred to in the legislation as protected characteristics.

    You’re asking the wrong person asking me what I believe anyone shouldn’t be able to say to you that they could say up to this point, because I’d be saying that to the other person who says it, not you.



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    #1423
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764961#Comment_120764961

    Well, speaking as a gay person myself -- and as someone who has never seen that footage before -- I found that video quite funny.

    I think the great thing about society is when all groups are able to laugh at themselves, and not to take themselves too seriously. It means everyone in society can make a laugh about a subject that was previously way, way too serious to even consider. Way too taboo.

    That kind of speech actually unites a country. It doesn't divide it; it's certainly not hateful. It's what society should be about, people of all backgrounds laughing at themselves, and moving on to talk about things that actually matter.



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    #1424
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764687#Comment_120764687

    What exactly were these hate "crimes" that were "recorded"? The Garda site lists a small number (10 or so) as "case studies", all of which resulted in prosecutions / juvenile diversion etc. One presumes these are the 'worst' incidents they could muster up. What about the other 500? A tidal wave of violent racism........or more likely nutjobs coming in the door screaming "Padraig Mor said Elliot Page is a girl - prosecute him!!!"? The figures should also be seen in the context that plenty of NGOs are now offering to 'help' 'victims' report hate crimes online - who knows what's real and what's not? And I certainly wouldn't put it beyond employees of some of our more committed NGOs to simply make stuff up and submit it.



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    #1425
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764978#Comment_120764978

    I can’t give you an example of a crime that would be committed against gay people today, that isn’t otherwise dealt with by extant legislation.

    Nobody can. That's my point.

    As an actual person who is referenced in this legislation (sexual orientation), I cannot think of a single example. You would imagine that, as a gay person myself, I'd be awash with examples. But I cannot think of any, not one. Not a single example.

    I have many straight people and others who claim to be speaking on my behalf, about protecting me from speech, when I am completely unaware of what speech I need to be protected from.

    Why are people speaking on my behalf, when I -- and other gay people -- didn't ask for this?

    What’s relevant is the perpetrator’s motivation

    I completely agree.

    Statements made in public boil down to the motivation of the person in question.

    But if the person makes a statement to deliberately incite violence against anyone, that is already dealt with by existing legislation.



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    #1426
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764961#Comment_120764961

    Do you think it's humorous to "promote the use of knacker babies as shark bait"

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1427
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764876#Comment_120764876

    What's legal is not always right? Well it is when the law says so.

    Anything you believe should be changed should be done through the correct channels. Usually it is outraged laws that's not right.



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    #1428
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765011#Comment_120765011

    You don't even understand anything about the existing legislation though. I explained to you about a case taken under the existing laws and you started talking about hate crime. Not really sure why you keep coming back to this subject when you are not even willing to learn or to educate yourself on what you are talking about.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1429
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765033#Comment_120765033

    Look at Russia, and see if what you said applies.

    Legality and morality have no association whatsoever. They are two completely separate concepts.

    Only authoritarians believe that legality and morality are synonymous.



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    #1430
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,595 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765044#Comment_120765044

    😂😂 are you.suggesting that Ireland is comparable to Russia?



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    #1431
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765042#Comment_120765042

    I've asked you a question thrice now. I have no problem if you wish not to answer the question, but I would nonetheless be interested to hear your thoughts on the question:

    As a gay person myself, can you think of an example of a statement that a person should be criminalised for making against me today, that isn't criminalised under existing legislation today?

    I already said that I, as the gay person involved, cannot think of a single example.

    Can you think of an example on my behalf?



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    #1432
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764982#Comment_120764982

    You're gay. For fcuk sake. I liked some of your posts. What'll everyone think of me now. Oh the shame. 🤣

    My best friend is a lesbian. I send her the most offensive gay memes I can find most days. The more offensive the better. All good humour. But to someone else, who knows what they might think.



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    #1433
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764961#Comment_120764961


    I’ll make the same point to you as I did to rapidash - what do you think being targeted on the ground of sexual orientation means?

    As for the specific example you give? I don’t envision anyone wasting their time making a complaint about anything that gobshyte puts out in the public domain, but it would likely be defensible under the criteria that it is a reasonable and genuine contribution to literary or artistic discourse.* -

    You will still be able to offend other people or express views that make others uncomfortable. You will still be able to debate and discuss issues regarding protected characteristics.

    The new law includes defences for reasonable and genuine contributions to literary, artistic, political, scientific, religious or academic discourse, and fair and accurate reporting.


    *It’s contribution to literary or artistic discourse being entirely debatable of course 😒



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    #1434
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765057#Comment_120765057

    No, I'm suggesting that morality and legality are not the same thing, which you previously implied was the case.

    After all, here is what you said:

    What's legal is not always right? Well it is when the law says so.




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    #1435
    tesla_newbie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764982#Comment_120764982

    Silence , the priggish progressives are our new moral guardians and must shield us from offence at all times



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    #1436
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764940#Comment_120764940

    Threats to bomb pride parades as have been made re Dublin Pride on Telegram in recent days

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1437
    tesla_newbie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭tesla_newbie


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765016#Comment_120765016

    I think it’s humorous to promote the use of baby sharks as prizes for bare knuckle boxing matches



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    #1438
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765084#Comment_120765084

    If true, that's incitement to violence -- which is handled under extant legislation.

    Everyone on this thread is 100% united against those comments.

    Yet why does that justify this new legislation? Which has nothing to do with a case that is dealt with under existing legislation.

    You're yet again proving my point.



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    #1439
    Padraig Mor
    Registered Users Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭Padraig Mor


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120764754#Comment_120764754

    Because this new law only requires that the complainant perceive a hate motive for a case to be instigated. Not alone that - but the 'victim' themselves doesn't even have to perceive it (whatever 'it' is) as being hate motivated - if a third party thinks "this is hate", it's break out the handcuffs time! In practicality, these third parties will be the myriad NGOs with their snouts in the trough (who of course have to invent 'hate crimes' to justify their fat salaries) who will guide naïve 'victims' to make complaints, or simply do it on their behalf.


    So, to follow on my previous post, if I make the following statement:

    "Elliot Page is female" (which is a statement of undeniable fact)

    all it takes is some swivelled eyed loon to make a complaint that I misgendered Page because I was motivated by hatred and it's a visit from the cops for me.


    Not alone do I think this is possible, I think it's a racing certainty with some posters on this site, including some posting in this thread (we all know who they are). I also think it'll be the nail in the coffin of this site - it's clear that our great leader Odhran couldn't give two hoots about the place - how long do you think he'll keep it going in face of multiple court orders for posters' information because Poster X said something factual that a hard left poster doesn't want to hear?



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    #1440
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765016#Comment_120765016

    It depends on the motivation of the person promoting it. If it was done for humour, then I've no problem with it if I'm totally honest. I'm a fan of offensive memes so that's my cards on the table.

    Do you think the guy who set up that website was serious about using 'knacker babies' as shark bait?



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    #1441
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120765098#Comment_120765098

    It's true

    https://twitter.com/ThereseCahill1/status/1672983423969898497?t=G_lNlQJaJRfqCtA917qw6A&s=19

    Dunno why you are now pretending it's easy to prosecute under the incitement to hatred act. Again showing your lack of understanding on this subject.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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