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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭briany


    We don't seem to have any details on what Prigozhin will do in Belarus. Channel 4 just mentioned in a news report about living a life of retirement there, but the tone in which this was said sounded tongue in cheek. This is just to underline that what his 'exile' will be like, no-one really knows. But if we say, for the sake of argument, that Prigozhin will remain the leader of Wagner, he'll want his boys in Africa where there is money to be made and relatively little resistance to be found, not hanging around Belarus. If he went to that country and then invited the boys around for an extended stay, it would be fairly obvious what he was planning.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,519 ✭✭✭Dubh Geannain


    Good, no BS, commentary.





  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭IdHidden


    Given all the talk of a nuclear threat. This is Russia the worlds largest kleptocracy.

    So they won't have a fraction of what they claim and a large percentage of what they do have probably doesn't work. As those weapons cost a fortune to maintain, and as it's always seemed unlikely anyone would ever try to fire them, that massive budget is ripe for the crooks in power to be dipping in to all the way along the line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,796 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    All members of the Duma asked to be in Moscow tomorrow, the speculation is that Shoigu will be replaced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,947 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    This is very naive. If Russia were to open a northern front it would change the dynamic completely and Ukraine would have to spread it's forces even more thinly than they are now.

    I'm not sure Belarus will allow an attack from it's territory but it's still not good having these guys on the Belarus border. It's another potential attack route that Ukraine needs to guard. Another distraction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭IdHidden


    The Russian army couldn't open a bottle of beer let alone a northern front.



  • Registered Users Posts: 336 ✭✭Slava_Ukraine


    ….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,230 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    This is very naive. If Russia were to open a northern front it would change the dynamic completely and Ukraine would have to spread it's forces even more thinly than they are now.

    That's a far bigger problem for the Russians, ICYMI. Russia is already spread so thin it's own mercs gained this much territory ("approximate distance") in a 1 day uprising, triggering a refugee panic and everything:




  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭IdHidden


    Putin is not acting like a person who is capable of swiftly reasserting his power and cracking down on anyone who had sided against him or simply had chosen to step aside and pretend like nothing was happening

    It is clear now that loyalty to Putin does not run deep. In the crucial 13 hours before Putin's speech, few came out in support of him. No governors, no Duma members, not even his national security council. Only 2 generals Surovikin and Alekseev recorded 'hostage videos' urging Wagner to stop.

    After all, if Prigozhin can get away with mutiny to keep operating his Wagner PMC company, why shouldn't other do what they like as well?

    It is also clear that faced with defeat Putin will do a deal, just like he did with Prigozhin.

    One remarkable thing about the nature of Prigozhin’s coup gamble is that he literally put his life and freedom on the line in an attempt to save… his PMC business



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,911 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    It's not like they'd be rolling over the border like they did at the beginning, they would have to attack and use artillery from Belarus giving Ukraine free reign to lay waste to Belarus directly, Minsk becomes a legitimate target almost immediately.

    It's a complete fantasy being pushed by fantasists.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    If Belarus could be deployed against Ukraine, it would already have. You think after a year of stalled, inept invasion Moscow wouldn't have opened up a northern front if it could? Madness to think they'd bottle that potential game changer. Tomorrow they could turn the tide of this invasion if Minsk was in any shape to provide as an ally.

    Belarus is a tinpot country barely holding onto its authority thanks to russian muscle and F all else; they make Italy 1940+ look competent and a threat to its neighbours. Their army can just about keep its own citizens in check, let alone march across to a NATO supplied neighbour and make war.

    We've had more than a year to have this threat enacted. The silence from the North is evidence enough. For now; maybe full mobilisation could change things for Russia, but with what equipment would these recruits get given?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 685 ✭✭✭farmerval


    Prigozhyn finally got Bakmut after months and months of inching forward at huge cost. Then he removed his troops for R&R to recover, then the Russian Ministry of Defence announce all fighters in Ukraine must be contracted to Minister of Defence.

    Now he denounces everything to do with the Ukrainian war, Putin's excuses for starting it, how it's going etc. leads his uprising, heads for Moscow does a deal with Putin to buy him off.

    I think Prigozhyn knows the war in Ukraine is and will be a disaster and as the only one with any glory relating to it has ensured he can be well out of the firing line when the s**t really hits the fan there. If that happens Putin is in the firing line, Prigozyhn has pinned this war totally on Putin.

    If/when the war goes really badly who's the only hero left standing to become Putin's replacement????



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 438 ✭✭thereitisgone


    So the reports of the Ukrainians crossing the river seem to be true, really thought this was propaganda

    Wonder what they planning




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Prigozhin in Belarus really makes little sense, unless he’s literally retired and paid off. Ridiculous risk for the Belarusian administration. How could they agree to this, unless either forced or assured that he was absolutely out of the game? Was Lukashenko forced to take him but pretend he was being magnanimous to Putin?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    They already tried a northern assault and already failed. At the beginning of the war Russians entered northern Ukraine from the territory of Belarus. This was the infamous convoy. Here is part of the wiki page about the incident:



    source

    If they couldn't manage to do it when they were at their full strength in the very beginning it would be extremely foolish to try it now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭briany


    @Kermit.de.frog

    If Russia were to open a northern front it would change the dynamic completely and Ukraine would have to spread it's forces even more thinly than they are now.

    Would it? Well, I've been told the Russian high command was inept, but I didn't realise it was so inept as to completely miss or disregard an 800+ mile stretch of frontline that could change the dynamic of the war, as you claim, and maybe even turn the tide for them. If that's the level they're at, maybe the reason why their airforce has been MIA is because the pilots misplaced their keys or forgot which way the yoke makes the nose go.

    Correct answer: they couldn't press toward Kyiv when they had a lot more and Ukraine a lot less. They damn sure can't, now. They could try, but they know it would fail, and that's why they don't. Simple.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,479 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    It actually makes sense now how Putin feared Nato or Ukraine invading Russia, as it's so dam easy. The best way to end this war is you invade Russia, if this was 1943, and a country was so so weak, it would be picked off for fun.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,754 ✭✭✭smokingman


    I think you'd find that us Irish would surprise you. We have a lot in common with the Ukrainian people and would find surprising ways to **** up nazis in incredibly inventive ways.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,009 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I am inclined to agree in part. It would explain why he was hell bent on capturing Bakhmut. However, I think he was set up yesterday to believe that he could overthrow Putin, but key actors betrayed him this is why he made the save facing deal in the end. It seems the attack on his militia never happened. According to US Intelligence he was planning this for weeks. So it makes zero sense that he suddenly had a pang of conscience and wanted to save his men and fellow Russians from bloodshed,especially seeing as he was quite happy for thousands of his men to be used as cannon fodder to expose Ukranian defensive positions in Bakhmut. His March for justice/ coup was a failure. Regarding his exile, I doubt Lukashenko just agreed to let him carry on as he has been doing up to now once in Belarus. This man has a knack for self preseveration afterall. I think Prigozhin will be an isolated figure in Belarus and will be bumped off at some stage without a security detail. The word immunity does not exist in Putin's vocabulary. He will want revenge and also to send a message to others that might be contemplating going against him that this is the price you will pay in the end.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,479 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I agree it is not a bad day for Ukraine, but that is a different matter for there being any great positives.

    OK, Russia has shown its fractures. Does anyone here think that Russian fractures, the tension between factions/ players etc were not already known and existed? How does this change the realities for Ukraine? The Russian Army is still in Ukraine, there seems to have been no reorientation of forces away from Ukraine, Putin still seems to be more or less the man at the top (if he is or not, he's no less so than he was before), and this public spat seems to provide no indication of a change of policy by Russia to Ukraine.

    Had the movement come to something, it might have been more a positive to Ukraine. The assassination attempts on Hitler which failed may have been good news for the Allies, but they didn't do very much in practical terms to help them. I don't see this as being any different.

    For now, though, it turned out it really was just a case of an excuse to grab the popcorn.



  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭mike_cork




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69


    Clearly the real one is glowing with pure evil and dark energy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,748 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    Not sure if same source but two Ruzzian telegram groups reporting complete breakdown in command and communications.

    All eyes on Kursk. Slava Ukraini.



  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    This would seem like a logical explanation



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 685 ✭✭✭farmerval


    Prigozhen has a massive knack for self preservation. This is the first time that there's an actual alternative ready and waiting in the wings. Right now would Putin actually dare take him out?

    This is really new territory for Putin. If the war starts going tits up he's in very deep trouble.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    They faced zero opposition,all they had to do was literally drive to the Kremlin,

    He's not the type that looks for mass support



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,154 ✭✭✭Jeff2




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    Eh the war is going tits up for Russia and has been for a long time already



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,232 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    If it turned into a free for all retreat by the Russians after the last few days who would be surprised.


    Russian military moral must be at levels beyond clinical depression.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    The Kremlin are saying putin was inside the Kremlin all along during the March to Moscow but now refuses to make any public statements to reassure the Russians population, propaganda channels are running pre recorded interviews with him instead,

    All this stress couldn't be great for him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,493 ✭✭✭EltonJohn69




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    It was hard to keep up yesterday. Was there any actual reliable confirmation that he'd left Moscow? Lots of tweets flying about flights heading out of Moscow with no destination set or going to Turkey. But was there anything concrete to say he'd left rather than locking himself in his bunker?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    There was talk of mass desertions and surrender being possible. Especially if the move on Moscow had continued.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,096 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    There is absolutely no way Lukashenko negotiated for Prigozhin to be allowed to move to Belarus, only to let him rebuild a private army. There won’t be a “Wagner II: Electric Belarus”

    In negotiating the deal, Lukashenko finally has something he can hold over Putin to put the brakes on Russia completely consuming Belarus: He saved Putin from an increasingly embarrassing situation, and he now holds the keys for the guy who did the damage in the first place. Lukashenko would have to be a really special class of idiot to throw that win away and let Prigozhin amass an army from his own people that could put him out of power, given how tenuously he’s been hanging on for the past few years already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,112 ✭✭✭RGARDINR


    Could prigozhen raise another Wagner military outfit from belurasians? I mean I can't imagine the pay over there is huge so he might try and raise another 20 to 30k of troops from there. Either he's killed or something like this will happen I reckon. I just wouldn't be surprised if he was promised the top job in Belarus when lushenko dies. Now whether he lasts that's long for that to happen is another thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,754 ✭✭✭smokingman


    You Russians have no idea of the power of the Irish people. We'd defeat you with rocks at the the end of our hurls no problem. We also have the best snipers on the planet. Just sayin



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,232 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    Lukashenko can't fully rely on his own forces.


    If pushed too hard they might turn on him.


    It probably is in his interest to have Prigozhin replace Putin, Putin is determined to restore the Soviet Socialist Union. Lukashenko not interested.


    Prigozhin doesn't have much political ambition beyond power and control.


    Give it a go, shur they are planning to kill us anyways is probably the guiding philosophy in the regions politics



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭Mike3549


    Is Igor Sushko reliable?

    He posted this:

    Prigozhin capturing Voronezh-45 nuclear storage facility in Russia may be part of the key to the lock that can help explain his decision to suddenly and bizarrely 'end' the coup which was succeeding spectacularly. I've been trying to figure how Prigozhin can guarantee his own survival after this. This may be it. Moscow may never have been his final destination. Vornezh-45 was. Once he got the nukes, he ended the operations because all objectives were achieved.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭dePeatrick


    He may be, but some think he is not at all… Very Interesting if it proves to be true but I haven’t seen it mentioned anywhere else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,904 ✭✭✭Polar101


    Prigozhin going to Belarus to start a new northern front?

    "Hello soldiers, my name is Yevgeniy and I'm your new commander from Russia. You may know me from highly successful military actions such as the battles of Bakhmut and Khasham. This time we're starting something even bigger - the Battle of Kyiv, 2023 edition. Most of you will probably die, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make."

    Umm, I don't think so. It's not like Wagner has been the missing component from an another from the north.

    More likely Prigozhin will spend some time drinking vodka in the bars of Minsk.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Lushashenko has all but surrendered Belarus to Putin ,he's already signed into law the permanent garrisoning of Russian military forces and nuclear weapons and guess who sponsored the bills to allow this Putin himself, lushashenko is nothing more than a puppet for the Kremlin, while he plays the role of both a hard man and peacemaker he's neither, putin decides what, where and who In Belarus,

    I can't see prigozhin just sitting there sipping cocktails and enjoying the minsk night life ,the question now will be will lusha have the balls to take care of prigozhin before putin tells prigozhin to take Belarus,or will he keep bowing to his Kremlin master



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Another bit of wild speculation: Putin knows Lushashenko's grip on Belarus is waning; it has a far noisier, active protest demographic than Russia has and Lushashenko himself is rumoured to be ill. The country seems to be ripe with discontent and a growing sense of disaffection with Eastern, authoritarian emphasis.

    So when Belarus suddenly finds itself sans leader, and that could be sooner than later, invariably the protests will morph into a full scale revolution and an attempt for democracy; the Belarusian army won't be reliable enough to crack down on dissent; but ... ... oh, look who's suddenly stationed in Belarus now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,363 ✭✭✭dePeatrick




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭Real Donald Trump


    The only thing Mr Prigozhin will be doing is taking is flying lesson from a building, certainly won't be put in charge of another country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,096 ✭✭✭Gregor Samsa


    The Union State was actually mostly Lukashenko’s idea at the beginning, as it was to his advantage to piggyback on Russia’s stronger economy. He negotiated the various treaties with Yeltsin, and had plans to succeed him as ruler of the combined Russia-Belarus state.

    His mistake was that he didn’t count on Putin coming in the scene with his imperialist ambitions, and has been trying to fend him off while staying on his good side ever since. This indeed has resulted in him becoming a pathetic puppet of Putin. The only thing keeping him in power is the delicate balancing act he’s been performing. If he pisses of his own people too much, they’ll revolt against him. If he pisses off the Russian too much, they’ll replace him.

    Having made the mistake once, he’s hardly going to foster the creation of another puppet master within his borders, especially one that’s already shown such a clear penchant for fearlessness and violent unpredictability.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,796 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    No, he's made a number of statements that turned out to be flat out lies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,796 ✭✭✭✭Francie Barrett


    Shoigu in Ukraine via Russian state TV.

    Guessing this is deliberate to squash the rumour that he's getting replaced.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,026 ✭✭✭JoChervil


    I thought the same. It happened too quickly for any negotiations. I think Lukashenko might have simply offered Prigozin the safe place to stay till his dispute with Putin resolves. In the mean time he now has his own hired army of mercenaries to protect him from his own people. And from Putin if this alleged attempt for Lukashenko's life was real.

    I don't think Progozin has ambition to rule the country. He simply wants to be his own boss with no overhead of Russia army commanders above him. He just said no to this idea, which was to materialise from the 1st of July. But in the process showed the weakness of Russia unintentionally.

    And frankly he had a full right to be p****d off after fighting for Bakhmut. Instead of reward he was practically demoted. Silly move from Putin.

    Or maybe after showing that he can, he is now waiting somewhere for the best offer to do the coup.



This discussion has been closed.
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