Is it time to join Nato

are we going to develop Nuclear? If not we will be contracting out our defense to the UK and the US

Stupid question. The low quality of your posts doesn't merit further engagement.

Have any nuclear weapons been used yet in the war in Ukraine?

If there's anything this war has taught us so far it's that modern warfare can exist without the use of nuclear weapons.

Thanks for making my point again. Bye now.

What is the point in joining NATO. If anybody invaded us do you think the U.S would just sit by and let that happen, not a hope.

Yes. Democracy. Not 'what Tom Tom wants'

Definitely no, to a vote, that is. Regardless of the benefits and downsides of a hypothetical participation in NATO, both of which are overplayed to a hilarious extent in the current debate, it is simply foolhardy to tie a government down based on the momentary whim of a notoriously fickle electorate at one particular point in time. A government needs to be able to maneuver freely to best serve and represent the interests of its people and forcing the government's hand in his matter based on the emotional landscape of Ireland in summer 2023 might well leave the country effectively paralyzed down the line.

Personally speaking, despite originally hailing from a NATO country, I'm actually opposed to joining NATO at this point. Why? Because neutrality, for any given definition of the word, is nothing unless you can enforce it, or at least be seen a capable of enforcing it. Basically, Ireland needs to be able to stand on its own feet first. For decades, this country has relied on the generosity of its neighbors for everything but the bare essentials, partially out of necessity, but more recently primarily out of self-indulgent complacency. "Ah shure, who would want to harm us? Everyone likes the Irish" seems to be the general consensus. I believe this to be a dangerous mind set. We're currently living through the most turbulent geopolitical time since the end of World War 2, possibly even since the early 1920s. New power blocks are forming, whilst old power structures that only a year or two seemed rock solid are beginning to crumble. Sooner or later, these changes will reach Ireland as well, and the government of the time will need to be agile enough to react to this, something that would not be possible if the country were to commit to, or be blocked from, joining an alliance at this point.

I mentioned earlier that Ireland needs to learn to stand on its own two feet. This also means that it will need to be able to safely police its own territorial waters, EEZ and air space, all of which Ireland currently has outsourced to various NATO members due to the aforementioned complacency. Building up the resources to do this on its own should take absolute precedence over any alliance discussions. Right now, the Defence Forces are like a police force without patrol cars: Great to have for checking in with the community, but unable to respond to urgent situations. There are those to say that any potential incursion into Irish territorial waters or airspace would also present a potential threat to our nearest neighbor, the United Kingdom, and would cause them to respond. Whilst this might seem like a solid argument on the face of it, it ignores the fact that for decades, the British military has been systematically starved of a lot of the funds it needs to operate, a trend that continues even to this day, with ongoing reductions in headcount, available warships or aircraft. Unless there's a major about-face in London soon, we might find ourselves in a situation, where we can't rely on cover from the Uk because the simply do not have the resources anymore. Given this prospect, it is only prudent to build up our own capabilities, something I believe that Ireland is both economically and technologically capable of.

are the Ukraine the baddies then 🤣

Trying to drag it to reducto ad absurdum eh:?

I do think the people should decide

Leo and Micheal seem to be contradicting each other

Without question.I would vote no.

any follow up?

Funny how you were supportive of the Russians on the Ukraine thread until things went south... "valuable and noble" neutrality my arse. Shameful, turn a blind eye attitude more like. Easy to know where the likes of Daly and Wallace get their votes.

If NATO hadn't helped Ukraine, this war would be over a long time ago. So you are being disingenuous with your framing of the definition of NATO defence. But then, NATO's "help" hasn't really done much good in the long run either - other than prolonging the pain for the people of that country.

Oh, and then there is the big elephant in the room regarding historical NATO meddling in that region in the first place. That's a whole topic of discussion all on it's own...

It really amazes me, that people can actually promote the idea of NATO membership off the back of the giant mess we are witnessing in Eastern Europe - and do it with a straight face! It's frankly quite astounding actually.

ah it has in fairness, its made the russians look like clowns

Russians are idiots, look at the mess of the last few days