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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Nine to Five. Workin' for The Man. The daily grind.


    etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,209 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    It's not an action movie, the lines aren't going to suddenly break en masse, it's massive defense in depth. The minefields are a huge problem. The more kit they have the better, but in a best case scenario it's still going to take Ukraine a long time. Could go on for years. Or the Russian military could start to collapse from the pressure, we've already seen plenty of cracks.

    Also keep in mind Ukraine has liberated over 250 square km in several weeks with bad weather and not committing the bulk of it's offensive forces, far more than Russia took in 6 months.



  • Registered Users Posts: 765 ✭✭✭I.am.Putins.raging.bile.duct


    It's often been said he manifests the dark triad. Narcissism, Machiavellianism and psychopathy. I doubt he suffers much anxiety at all compared to normal people. Russia seems to let people like him rise to the top much like corporate CEOs.

    Also worth noting is people who have been identified as internet trolls show similar traits. It would explain the mutual attraction.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/ie/blog/out-the-darkness/202203/the-danger-dark-triad-leaders

    https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/20563051211021382



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,240 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Firstly, NATO is looking at more effective weapons to help Ukraine speed up the process of retaking the country. Not as fast as most would like, but training on the F-16s looks to be happening.

    Secondly, it appears that NATO strategy is not to chase Russia out of Ukraine in a quick manner but to wear Russia down until the Putin regime falls and Russia withdraws or comes to the table with a much more modest set of proposals. Is this a cynical way to go about things when people are getting blown up by mines and dying in all sorts of other horrible ways? One could make that argument, but we're dealing with a large power in Russia under Putin who is incredibly spiteful and ruthless. I think they would blow that power plant if they found themselves on the end of an imminent rout along the southern front, for example. They may not go with nuclear weapons, but will happily commit every massacre and create every ecological disaster they can if they think they're about to lose the small hold they do have on the territory of Ukraine.

    Thirdly, I think we should take a moment to appreciate that the West has given Ukraine a massive amount of military aid so far, such that it's pretty much the main reason (apart from the Ukrainian soldiers' tenacity) why Zelenskyy isn't currently sitting in a Russian jail cell (optimistic, here, to think they wouldn't kill him without trial) and a puppet government hasn't been running the country for the last year.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I just worry that Russia have had too long to dig in. Everybody has been focused on big (or interesting) events like Bakhmut, the dam, now this Prigozhin thing, meanwhile the Russians have been creating the most extensive defensive works in Europe since WWII.

    The trenches etc can be seen on satellite. Minefields can't, but you have to assume they have mined the place just as extensively. That's certainly what it seems from videos these last few weeks.

    It's frustrating that this was allowed to happen. I know Ukraine had to be trained and armed etc but it all happened way too slowly.

    German commanders said that a Red Army bridgehead had to be counterattacked and destroyed quickly because once the Soviets were dug in, they would be a nightmare to dig out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,240 ✭✭✭✭briany


    True, but to be fair you could also phrase it in this way: the amount of territory the Russians captured in their Winter offensive was miniscule in relation to their ambition. The amount of territory which Ukraine has captured in its Summer offensive is similarly miniscule, although less so.

    Ukraine need something to breach Russian lines and really put them in disarray.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,178 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Does anyone know if the rail line through Tokmak is still operating freely? Given the importance of rail lines to Russian logistics, I assume that it is worthy of repeated HIMARs strikes on bridges, if not the general track?

    How far behind the front lines would the M777s and other artillery be placed? Robotyne, recently retaken, is 25km for that rail line. Orikhiv is 15km further back and the rail line would be within range of a Caesar operating from there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,240 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Hoping Ukraine can do the same kind of thing along this southern front. It begs the question what kind of fortifications the Russians had in place to slow Ukraine's advance in that region. Was it of a similar level to what Ukraine is facing now? If so, what tactics did Ukraine employ to overcome them and could they be used in their current offensive?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I've read it. I'm not sure how you think it supports your point.

    A) The US knew of and warned Ukraine of the upcoming invasion but Ukraine did not believe them. There is nothing the US can do about that.

    B) It says nothing about if the Russians had held Hostomel the city would have fallen. Its a fanciful idea. A single runway simply is not that important. Russia could not have brought in enough troops to storm the city from there under the circumstances.

    Russians took the airport because Ukraine did not trust US intel and didn't expect the attack. They had, however, made preparations all the same so that the attack on hostomel was not as big a blow as it might have been. The lines of tanks happened because the Russian advance was terribly planned and relied on limited resistance. The recapturing of Hostomel was not the cause of that - you don't invade or circle a city from one airstrip. As for the attack on the presidential palace, the info is sparse but it seems a fairly cock-a-hoop attempt that was never likely to succeed.

    Since we are discussing WaPo articles however, here is another one explaining that the US did in fact know everything that was about to happen




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Timeline: 06-July 1944

    Report: the amount of territory the allies have captured since their amphibious landings on the Normandy coast is miniscule. The German forces have foiled multiple British and Canadian assaults on Caen. The American forces are stuck in the bocage and are taking large casualties. There seems little possibility of a breakout and supply lines are strained.

    (6 weeks later they were in Paris. 2 weeks after that they were in Brussels and the end of the war was in sight)

    First slow, then quick. 😉



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,009 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I think within the next few weeks we will see a rapid advance like we saw in Kherson a while back. The Ukranians are probing for weakness and have kept troops in reserve for when a significant breach is made. Already we have seen a Donbas village that was in Russian hands since 2014 being retaken according to the British MOD. Even if i am wrong about a rapid advance, Ukraine are going to win this war in time simply because if Russia achieves any kind of victory it will upset the international order and give a green light to others who want to invade their neighbours. A Russian victory would likely see the Dollar plummet in value due to America's authority being weakened. The fact Putin did not realise all this shows his hubris overrode his ability to think clearly. Sergei ,his security chief, likely knew it, but as we see in that video I posted earlier he was afraid to tell his boss what he really thought. Which just about sums Putin's regime up and why he is on the road to ruin or maybe the Hague eventually!

    If the west had gone all in Ukraine could have achieved this victory sooner and lost less men, but in the main the west have always been reactive rather than pro active.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout



    Yes it is.

    Perun talks about this exact thing in his latest video. I have it lined up to begin at the relevant section below




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Caquas


    If you can read that article and still believe that the recapture of Hostomel airport was not essential for the defence of Kyiv then I would be wasting everyone’s time trying to convince you otherwise.

    How many times must I repeat my original point - that the Americans, alone among the Western powers, warned Kyiv of the impending invasion? But nothing I’ve seen suggests that the Americans had a top level source in the Russian MoD, the point I have been trying to make. US advice about protecting Hostomel can be explained simply as sound military analysis - protect all your capital’s airports- and required no special knowledge of the enemy’s plans.

    But if you think the Americans have a source in the Russian MoD who is telling them what what went on in the Kremlin last weekend, you are blind to the obvious befuddlement in Washington and in the Western media.

    I’ll leave it there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,351 ✭✭✭rogber


    Neither you nor I nor anyone else knows what is going on behind the scenes with Putin, lukashenko and Wagner. The whole thing is bizarre and only time will tell what everyone's purpose is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,209 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    It's likely the US and other foreign countries have multiple sources and taps in the Kremlin. How high and how deep they go we don't know. Also, they don't necessarily need someone right beside Putin, a picture can be built from having intel from levels within the FSB, Rosgvardia, Kremlin staffers, GRU, etc. On top of that, if they had strong intel it's unlikely they would put it at risk for column inches in papers, only for very serious threats to national security.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,344 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Also to be so adamant that the invasion was coming in the face of disagreement from almost everyone in Europe and Ukraine themselves and to publish it so openly they must have been incredibly sure of their intel. Whether that is someone in the MOD or 5 photocopiers doesn't really matter.

    I don't know what in that story makes anyone think the recapture of hostomel airport was so essential though. It was certainly helpful, but also somewhat inevitable because like much of the rest of the invasion it was a terribly planned op that was never likely to succeed in the long term.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭riddles


    Is that not Rick Stein maybe they’re opening a fish restaurant in Moscow



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 991 ✭✭✭erlichbachman




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,589 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    I think the pentagon leaks said America have high level spies in the Russian MOD and the Wagner group.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭saabsaab




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,617 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    How long does Prigozhin think he will last? Putin has unalived people for a lot less



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,229 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I assume it's for the same or similar reasons Commodus doesn't kill Maximus even when he has him dead to rights: you don't try and make martyrs and you don't try and set the match on a rebellion. Least of all when your martyr is a 'war hero' with the adoration of your military...




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Prof. M Clarke on Sky believes that Ukraine is stretching the Russians out along a very wide front before a major thrust. He also said that there was a contract on Prigozhin!

    I think that the coup or whatever it was shows the pressure the Russians are under now. The sanctions, finance and military problems are having a serious effect.



  • Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    New round of American military assistance has now been confirmed



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,617 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    I'm knowledged on military tactics and equipment. Political machinations aren't my department. Sorry.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,229 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    There is a significant difference between 'clearing' a minefield, and 'breaching' a minefield. Clearing minefields is the stuff of very slow, methodical, dedicated work, which can go on for years after the war is over. "Breaching" merely requires the creation of a marked lane through the minefield. Generally a MCLC is used to either detonate, or blow to the side, the various mines in the suspected field, but then it needs to be proofed because the MCLC won't get them all. That's there the plough-equipped tanks come in. Rollers can be used as well, but they tend to be less effective. A plough or roller is normally good for one or two mine strikes before it needs to be replaced. These vehicles are very vulnerable, as they operate at a walking pace, tend to be fairly unmaneuverable, and cannot have the turret front towards the enemy (if they have one), in order to protect the gun from the detonations of the mines. The breach of a minefield can take anything from 20 minutes to a couple of hours, depending on resistance and size of the minefield.

    It's also important to remember the point of a minefield (or any other form of obstacle, from dragon's teeth to anti-tank ditches or abatis). They are rarely used as blocking obstacles because it's just so hard to make a blocking minefield. They are more frequently used as turning, disrupting or delay obstacles (Each of those four terms has its own doctrinal definition). Just because a minefield is breached doesn't mean it hasn't done its job.


    I prefer this version...




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,240 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Did Professor Clarke have any opinions on how Ukraine can bypass the large minefields, which Russia appears to have laid down, when this main thrust occurs?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,229 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    How effective would a MOAB be vs. a MCLC at the same job?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 165 ✭✭Fastpud




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,229 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    In theory, great. The thing is dropped out of a C-130 or C-17, though, so how would you get it there without getting shot down?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Caquas


    Are you saying the American intelligence services knew what was going on in Russia last Sunday (when the world thought a homicidal lunatic might get his hands on Russia's nuclear arsenal) but that they preferred their President and senior officials to look like deer caught in the headlights rather than re-assuring the American people because that would give the impression that they had better sources of information in the Kremlin?

    I am saying the opposite and that one of the most important aspects of this episode is the weakness of Western intelligence in Russia. Everyone knew Prigozhin was angry and unstable but he caught everyone with their pants down last weekend and it is hard even for media close to the Biden Administration to disguise this -


    I don't blame the CIA etc. for not anticipating Prigozhin's mutiny - that took everyone by surprise, especially the Russian MoD. But the element of surprise was gone by Saturday evening when Lukashenko announced the "deal". As far as I can see, no Western power seems to know what is happening in Russia even now e.g. is Putin's power secure? what becomes of Prigozhin and the Wagner mercenaries? how will it affect the war in Ukraine? I doubt if they even know whether General Gerasimov is even still alive [I assume so and expect him to re-emerge shortly, but who knows?]

    All the Western media analysts, including those who are known to be linked to Western intelligence services, are just speculating with whatever crumbs of information become public. They don't even pretend to have sources in the Kremlin (and the media always boast about any high-level contacts).

    I say we are back in the depths of the Cold War when Western intelligence had no high-level source in the Kremlin. Ditto with Beijing. The internet gives Americans a huge advantage in SigInt but not in Russia, it seems, nor in China (which may have turned the tables on the Americans in that area).

    We are going to experience many more unpleasant surprises from Russia and China.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 85,229 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Great point, supposing that would only be viable in very large scale joint operations with lots of air and ground assets involved to support a bigly and immediate push.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,209 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Intelligence may have learned what Prig was planning, but like Prig, Putin, Luk, Shoigu, etc they didn't know exactly what would happen next until it happened. It was a 22 hour event, Biden wasn't going to stand up and second guess what even the Russians didn't know was going to happen next. When the deal was struck, we learnt about it quickly and it ended quickly.

    It's intelligence, not clairvoyance



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,350 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Or their sources cant get information out that quickly. Or are just outside the inner circle that were in the loop during this crisis.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,943 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    He seems to say that they would keep pushing carefully until they found a weak spot in the defences. Gap in the minefields somewhere they can't be in depth everywhere.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,240 ✭✭✭✭briany


    I understand the need to probe, but they not only have to find a gap in the mines, but find a gap which isn't covered by other forms of defence, or if it is covered by other forms, then comparatively weak forms. The Russians could conceivably have essentially mined every bit of open ground which sits between their defensive positions and advancing Ukrainian forces, especially if they themselves have no imminent intention of pressing forward on that front themselves, and in order to advance, Ukraine will simply have to clear a path, which makes it trickier to make a sudden drive at a point in the Russian lines which they believe to be weak.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Remember that:

    1. Ukraine's heavy brigades are mostly still uncommitted to the battle
    2. F16s will be in Ukrainian hands by the end of the year, giving them equality in the skies
    3. Russian unity is visibly crumbling
    4. Russian reserves are non-existent

    The pressure will tell and the lines will collapse. First slow, then quick.😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,406 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    If I had to guess, I'd say the first serious gains will be around Bakhmut.

    Which would be fittingly ironic.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,269 ✭✭✭threeball


    This Prizoghin think is too off the wall to not have something behind it and the Russians are nutty enough to try anything.

    I'm going to throw this out there, feel free to tear it asunder. Anyone who knows my posting history on this thread knows I'm first to shoot down anyone rattling the nuke sabre but theres a few things culiminating here that would worry me. So the story as it stands

    1. Putin knows hes losing the war
    2. Putin moves Nukes to Belarus
    3. Prigozhin goes off the rails and supposedly stages a coup. Then backs down
    4. Gets exiled to Belarus
    5. Gets a camp built not far from nuke storage

    So far that's the facts as we know them. So is Putin daft enough to think that if the war turns bad when the remaining battalions enter the fray, that he turns Prizoghin lose. Accuses him of going rogue again. Has him launch a WMD on the largest concentration of ukrainian troops, then condemn the attack. Believing it gives him plausible deniability and perhaps avoiding a retaliatory strike. What could we do, you saw him try to oust me last month? Would the west really respond with a proportional response?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,211 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Watching Lukashenko's televised remarks today, he made Putin look very weak, not a strong man. He made it sound like he was the calm and measured one on Saturday whilst Putin was in a state of panic and depression.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,209 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,240 ✭✭✭✭briany


    I heard a report earlier the AFU have re-established positions within the perimeter of the town itself. If there's another protracted battle for control of the town, not even the blackened husks of the buildings may be standing by the end of it. As long as it remains worthwhile in terms of the ratio of Ukrainian losses to Russian ones, and as long as the Russians are boneheaded enough to keep committing forces there, then crack on, I suppose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,589 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Hopefully not but this is Russia so you could be right unfortunately.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,580 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Well for the deniability stunt that Putin has used successfully up to now, I don't think that it will work when it comes to Nuclear weapons. Any kind of Nuclear attack will be blamed fairly and squarely on Putin, as he is considered to be responsible for all Nuclear events in that part of the world. And it would be the correct decision, as only Putin would have the codes needed to fire them, So no matter where they are launched from, the trail leads back to Putin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,486 ✭✭✭macraignil


    I can't see that type of scenario working as a free pass for putin and a bipartisan resolution in the USA has tried to clarify that any use of nuclear weapons by a proxy of russia or a nuclear accident that leads to radioactive fall out on NATO members would qualify as a trigger for Article 5 of NATO and russia would in this situation be at war with NATO and all of its military would be subject to NATO attack.

    I'm worried that the moves by Wagner forces to take control of some russian airfields before the Prigozhiin - Putin deal led to some tactical nuclear weapons falling into the hands of Wagner and they now have the nuclear card to play if putin does what he would like to do and tries to have Prigozhin killed. It is only me speculating but I can't see how Prigozhin was so comfortable moving away from the bulk of his troops unless he had some sort of reassurance that he had a way to retaliate if putin moves against him.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,240 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Has Putin successfully used deniability? Seems to me that the only people who believe Putin's attempts to deny things that were very clearly Russia's doing are Russian citizens and a gaggle of western contrarians. A low enough bar, imo. I absolutely agree that Putin would be bang to right if he ever launched nukes, not that who's to blame would any longer be a pressing concern when doomsday is in the offing.



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