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Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

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    #1562
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120772556#Comment_120772556

    Oh right OK. Whataboutery

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1563
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774954#Comment_120774954

    There was no whataboutery at all.

    He was offering examples of the nature of the subjectivity of "hate".

    What one person perceives as hateful, another person would not. One may want the same person criminalised, whereas the other person would not.

    These are legitimate points. Pithy dismissals don't go any way toward addressing them.



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    #1564
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774258#Comment_120774258

    😅😅😅

    One of the silliest and most childish arguments I have seen on the site. Basically your argument is "I disagree with it so the people proposing it are completely stupid and thick"

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1565
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774976#Comment_120774976

    Whatabout this and whatabout that is whataboutery 😶

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1566
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774990#Comment_120774990

    Not if the "what about" is related to the implications of the legislation, which his points were.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774981#Comment_120774981

    Yet again, pithy dismissals -- no engagement with the arguments against your position.

    Misrepresenting other people's legitimate arguments doesn't make your argument any stronger.



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    #1567
    TomTomTim
    Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774981#Comment_120774981

    They are indeed full of shite. As the creators and supporters are more driven by their megalomania than anything else. Saying that, not many of them are anywhere near as smart or wise as they think they are.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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    #1568
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120774312#Comment_120774312

    We keep talking about aggravated factors for assault, but we know that the actual physical assault is the real crime here.

    Outside of crimes that are already criminalised, this legislation doesn't add to -- nor prevent -- the actual assaults from taking place.

    If you have evidence that hate speech legislation reduces the incidence of assaults, by all means present it. If you cannot, then all we're talking about is adding extra sentencing to crimes that are already criminalised.



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    #1569
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775042#Comment_120775042


    all we're talking about is adding extra sentencing to crimes that are already criminalised.


    At least you get it now! Far cry from your earlier assertion that anyone was being prosecuted for their thoughts and not their actions.



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    #1570
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775042#Comment_120775042

    What are you talking about?

    I don't know how many times I have pointed out to you that the incitement to hatred part of the bill is separate from the Hate crimes part of the bill.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1571
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775186#Comment_120775186

    It's very much linked to what I said, though.

    For example: a gay man could be physically attacked because he was gay, but the perpetrator of the attack may not have shouted homophobic slurs. If the same kind of attack happened against a straight person, we wouldn't assume any secondary motive. We would focus on the attack itself.

    Then, there are other cases where someone may be attacked for a particular reason but, during that attack, the perpetrator decided to use slurs -- even if those slurs were irrelevant to starting the attack to begin with.



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    #1572
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775239#Comment_120775239

    And that is upto the courts to examine on if it meets the criteria for a hate crime

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1573
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775238#Comment_120775238

    If incitement to hatred meant anything at all, we would have to ban the Bible and Quran.

    Those two books and its preachments directly led to a homophobic society.

    Are you suggesting we ban these two books, and criminalise the people who speak its verses?

    If not, then there are double standards at play here.



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    #1574
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775248#Comment_120775248

    🤣 Keep shifting the goalposts

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1575
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775265#Comment_120775265

    No, but an answer to a legitimate question would be appreciated.



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    #1576
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775283#Comment_120775283

    Every time in the last day or two that I highlighted your knowledge was lacking you shifted the goalposts.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1577
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775390#Comment_120775390

    Declaring almost ex cathedra that my "knowledge is lacking" on this legislation, does not come close to addressing the legitimate points I made. Indeed not just my points, but your continued misrepresentation of legitimate points made by other posters on this thread.

    It seems to me that, at this stage, your rebuttals are more for effect rather than actually engaging honestly and sincerely with the points made against your position.

    If the Quran and Bible argue in favour of punishing homosexuals, and preachers of both faiths argue in favour of that position in public, should they be found guilty under this legislation?

    Look, it's a simple question. What's the answer?



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    #1578
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775445#Comment_120775445

    I explained to you several times where you got things wrong and were incorrect and explained to you what was correct. Its not my fault you havent fully understood the detail of this debate and have mixed up all the concepts. Not sure what your point is here really other than shifting goalposts. Its irrelevant too given that the Bill exempts religious texts.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1579
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775490#Comment_120775490

     Its irrelevant too given that the Bill exempts religious texts.

    There's lots to say about your post. But this point stood out.

    Do you think that it's fair to "exempt religious texts"?



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    #1580
    Hodger
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Hodger


    Interesting outcome of a case in the high court today.

    I posted a few weeks ago that a known activist was told by a Judge " not to post anything on social media that is abusive or offensive to any person. "

    Well the high court quashed that Judge,s order today.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2023/06/27/court-overturns-order-preventing-campaigner-from-making-offensive-social-media-posts/

    If the current planned goes through and when someone is brought before a court a court over " hate speech " well chances are they also will be able bring a high court challenge.

    I imagine today,s ruling will set a precedent.



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    #1581
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,330 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775248#Comment_120775248

    To be fair, it's the modern interpretations of the two books that led to homophobic societies.

    I'd also argue it's very difficult to pinpoint any part of the Bible that could be considered incitement. Dunno about the Quran.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1582
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,602 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775806#Comment_120775806

    There is no precedent because there is no ruling. The article said that the matter had been resolved. The DPP consented to an order quashing the condition. So the high court did not have to decide anything.



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    #1583
    Marcos
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭Marcos


    Well now, things are starting to get more interesting. Gript have just come out and said they will deliberately flout the hate speech law. And they're choosing the grounds they will do so.

    "we will deliberately and consciously disobey it, specifically on the topic of gender identity."

    Now that I'm sure is the last thing that the government want a test case on this subject, and they'd avoid it if they could. Because they know that once this gets into court Gript will reintroduce the videos of Regina Doherty telling the Scots people that there are about nine different genders. It's looking like that recent video of Ben Scallan asking Leo for the governments official position on how many genders there are was more relevant to any future court case than anyone thought. Especially if Regina Doherty and Leo are called as witnesses and cross examined on this. It would go worldwide.

    I know it is going to be up to the Attorney General to choose which cases to prosecute under this law, but I can't see how they can ignore this.

    Unintended consequences and all that. I bet Leo, Micheal and the rest of the cabinet will be thanking Helen for this.

    When most of us say "social justice" we mean equality under the law opposition to prejudice, discrimination and equal opportunities for all. When Social Justice Activists say "social justice" they mean an emphasis on group identity over the rights of the individual, a rejection of social liberalism, and the assumption that unequal outcomes are always evidence of structural inequalities.

    Andrew Doyle, The New Puritans.



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    #1584
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,330 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775929#Comment_120775929

    Dunno - the initial judge chose his words very poorly, let's be honest.

    The judge also imposed certain conditions including that she must keep the peace and that for the duration of the two-year suspended period she must not engage in any behaviour in any public place or public forum, including social media, that is abusive or offensive to any person.

    Anyone with half a brain would know that "any" person could find something to be offened by - or could even just claim to be offended to get her into trouble.

    I'm not sure how vague the wording in the act is, but I'd be VERY surprised if it used the phrase "... offensive to ANY person", so it might not count as a challenge to the bill (as it hasn't actually become law) - just that specific ruling.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #1585
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,602 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    Firstly it's not.up to the attorney general to prosecute any cases. You're about 50 years behind the justice.system there!

    Secondly, I never read.gript before, didn't have any particular feelings about it. But Jaysis that article!

    And, thirdly, why is everyone so obsessed with gender? How does it impact anyone other then the person themselves. I just don't get this recent hate, are people just completely brainwashed by social media or what?



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    #1586
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,602 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120775929#Comment_120775929

    No. See my post above. No precedent was set.



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    #1587
    Sudden Valley
    Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778781#Comment_120778781

    Unfortunately that because gript are on one side of the argument, and many people would find their politics distateful, some will not publicly object to the legislation or may even support it just to be on the opposite side to them. It's a pity that some of the most pro free speech advocate are also pretty divisive in how they speak about alot of subjects.

    I would say the government are delighted with gripts intervention.



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    #1588
    Hodger
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Hodger


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778781#Comment_120778781

    " And, thirdly, why is everyone so obsessed with gender? How does it impact anyone other then the person themselves. "

    This woman,s mother and her friends would take a different view, as when male bodied person came into their changing area it made them Uncomfortable.

    https://twitter.com/AudreySuffolk/status/1670484025058680834




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    #1589
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778781#Comment_120778781

    Yes. Unfortunately a small minority of people have been radicalised into obsessive toxic hatred of trans people. You see it all the time here.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #1590
    suvigirl
    Registered Users Posts: 7,602 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778910#Comment_120778910

    Yeah, I've seen that particular tweet before.

    There are a number of issues I think, the male bodied man didn't do anything, those women felt uncomfortable. My mother (in her 70s) feels uncomfortable walking through a group of young lads on the street. The young lads haven't actually done anything, she just feels uncomfortable. No one else's fault.

    the male bodied person was probably dressed as a woman? Not very suitable for walking into a man's dressing room either.

    the answer is probably unisex changing rooms, everyone can take their pick, there's plenty of them all over Europe. everyone can enter which ever one they feel comfortable in.

    That would probably suit everyone better.



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    #1591
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,330 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778729#Comment_120778729

    One would have to ask the question: why don't they do so already...?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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