Annual leave Civil Service circular 08/2023

wench · 28-06-2023 10:20pm

You were always supposed to take all your statutory leave unless business needs prevented it.

If it was carried forward, you only had 6 months to use it, you couldn't keep rolling it forward.

From the old circular:

12. Carryover of the statutory minimum annual leave allowance is subject to the provisions

of paragraph 3 (i.e. an employee must be granted the statutory minimum annual leave allowance

(now 4 working weeks) within the leave year in which it is accrued, or with the employee's

consent, within six months of the start of the next leave year). While Departments are obliged to

allow staff to take their statutory minimum annual leave allowance within this timeframe, every

effort should also be made to make it possible for staff to take all of the leave allowable to them

in each leave year.

15. In any leave year, an officer must take his/her annual leave allowance in the following sequence:-

(i) any part of the statutory minimum annual leave allowance carried forward from

the previous leave year (which must be taken within six months of the start of the

new leave year),

28-06-2023 10:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779957#Comment_120779957

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779956#Comment_120779956

This is a big part of the issue, as I see it.

The former 3 year carry over cycle didn't put any limit on the number of days that could be carried over, statutory or otherwise. No case for carrying over statutory days had to be made. It carried over automatically (at least, it did in my dept).

Was this different in other depts?

If this was to be changed - fair enough - but the Union should have been informing people that this was going to happen.

28-06-2023 10:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779957#Comment_120779957

Not in my dept.

NapoleonInRags · 28-06-2023 10:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120773520#Comment_120773520

AHCPS briefed members on this last February / March in fairness......

Mrs OBumble · 28-06-2023 11:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120778272#Comment_120778272

Statutory annual leave exists for the purpose of giving you adequate rest and reecreation to recove from the stress of working. If you save it up instead of using it each year, you are not getting that rest.

That's a perfectly good reason for the change.

28-06-2023 11:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780097#Comment_120780097

I remember hearing changes were going to be made to how long time-in-lieu earned for extra attendance could be carried over. But not Annual Leave.

And that was not from the union, but from HR.

spark_tank · 28-06-2023 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780127#Comment_120780127

Well that's not being very flexible is it? Everyone is different. Some people might feel perfectly adequately rested with 10-15 days off, especially if they have another 10-15 days flexi leave during that period. All the while knowing that they have an extra long break to look forward to every 3 years.

The change is for the benefit of the employer, not the employee.

TaurenDruid · 28-06-2023 11:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780070#Comment_120780070

Nor anywhere I've worked. Managers would ask people to take at least two weeks together, but it was certainly the case that people would 'save up' their leave for things like big trips or weddings the following year.

TaurenDruid · 28-06-2023 11:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780097#Comment_120780097

How? Email or newsletter? There's nothing on their website about it. Five news items since Christmas, one of them shilling a Cornmarket sales pitch, three about a vacancy, and the Christmas newsletter.

TaurenDruid · 28-06-2023 11:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780127#Comment_120780127

Wrong end of stick... and we're mainly talking about losing the ability to carry over non-statutory leave, anyway. In any case, you're private sector, so the circular doesn't apply to you.

28-06-2023 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780263#Comment_120780263

Same in mine.

I know I've worked with a couple of parents with young kids would try to save as much leave as they could spare to cover them for when the kids got sick.

leanbh · 28-06-2023 11:59pm

The only rule I knew of that was strictly enforced was as another poster said -you had to take at least 2 consecutive weeks per week- you could carry over everything else under the old circular.

Also, I understood that a circular is terms and conditions of a civil servants employment.

In order to change terms and conditions you have to "consult" with employee.

In civil service this has always been done through formal meetings with union on behalf of all civil servants.

So did Forsa sit down with Dper and give them the nod to go ahead??

If not, is the new circular even valid?

I'm annoyed as I've a wedding In Oz year after next and was hoping to make it into a big break with my family.

Nigel Fairservice · 29-06-2023 12:19am

I've been in 3 departments and none made staff to take two weeks together. Never even heard of it happening. I've never taken 2 weeks together in the civil service.

Hotblack Desiato · 29-06-2023 1:32am

I'm surprised I have to say. I'm nearly 30 years in CS in various places and have never, once, heard of anyone being asked to take two weeks together.

Although it was a rule when my wife was working in financial services!

Hotblack Desiato · 29-06-2023 1:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780323#Comment_120780323

In order to change terms and conditions you have to "consult" with employee.

In the private sector, yes, supposedly.

In the public sector, yes if they feel like it, but they always reserve the right to just do what they want and are not subject to as many legal restrictions as private sector employers. Also civil servants have almost no recourse to the WRC.

Cuts in pay and T&Cs after the crash were unilaterally imposed and anyone who says stuff like "the unions sold out the new employees" hasn't the foggiest notion of what they are talking about, a popular notion among Indo readers in particular. 🤨

leanbh · 29-06-2023 11:01am

Wow. Didn't know they'd no obligation to consult with unions.

So they can look at what's the legal minimum we can get away with and apply that?

That seems wrong when they are always promoting themselves as employer of choice for flexibility etc.

What's the point of the union then?

Anyway keeping an eye on this! Very enlightening this discussion.

29-06-2023 11:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120779964#Comment_120779964

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781284#Comment_120781284

Given what @wench has posted above, it looking more like this is a tightening up of pre-existing conditions on statutory leave that were already in the older circular but were just never enforced, then new conditions.

Given that, and they're citing the OWTA as their basis, then I doubt the Union could have done much about it.

But I'm still annoyed that they seem to be absent on every issue. The communication is zero. I think a lot of people are going to be totally blindsided by this.

The two week thing on Annual Leave in my Dept was always framed as a request. It was never actually enforced, either.

TaurenDruid · 29-06-2023 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120781284#Comment_120781284

So the most recent time FFG bankrupted the country, civil servants had a pension levy, a pay freeze, and (2?) pay cuts, plus an increase in hours worked. The unions' reaction was "well, it could have been worse, there could have been redundancies!"

The public service unions covering clerical/admin/managerial staff seem mostly there to act as a conduit for insurance companies selling stuff to us and for recommending we vote in favour of whatever below-inflation pay rise they "negotiated" for us.

That said, they're still necessary, because a) imagine how much worse things would be without them; and b) if an individual needs advice/representation because of bullying/harassment/victimisation.

leanbh · 29-06-2023 12:08pm

I can understand needing tightening terms of employment when the country went bankrupt back in 2009.

What I don't understand is when country is doing well (Exchequer I mean) why are they reducing their favourable terms and conditions?

They have a real difficulty recruiting in Dublin particularly.

One big attraction for people in taking up a civil service post at Clerical Officer or executive officer level , heo etc was always the flexibility and generous terms (while accepting the pay would be a good bit lower than open market).

In a market where currently, employees can be choosy, I don't understand the thinking behind this.

I'm older so it doesn't bother me.

But it does look like an active attempt to pare down the public service by snips here and there, maybe thinking no-one will notice?

29-06-2023 1:31pm

New COs in Dublin will soon be like gold dust, unless they're still living at home with their parents.

Its not worth it for what it pays.

Augme · 29-06-2023 9:57pm

It's a very odd situation really. The o requirements of the olde circular were never followed and the legal requirements were never followed. Which, let's be honest there, is a bit mentally when you are talking about civil servant and government departments. The people responsible for creating legislation and making sure it is implemented.

How they got away with being able to ignore it for so long is a surprise.

The communication from the Forsa has been non-existent but that's hardly a surprise, they are fairly useless. But I do understand their predicament in this situation, can they really come out and say that the legislation should be ignored or employees should not be allowed a legal entitlement to a certain amount of days off? Nope, they won't.

However, it would be good to see then use this as a chance to push for additional annual leave and to restore our conditions to pre 2011 levels. The civil service basically took those hits because the country was bankrupt, we are now9ng drowning in billions so there is now excuse.

I expect the union to be as useful as a chocolate teapot when it comes to negotiating the new Haddington Road agreement though.

leanbh · 29-06-2023 10:52pm

But doesn't the legislation simply create minimum entitlements- I.e. you get at least twenty days statutory annual leave per year: employer has to offer them to you but you don't have to take them.

And as I read the old circular that was observed.

But now they're referring to the minimum terms as set out in legislation to limit the generous terms we had.

Its quite possible to comply with their legal requirements while giving us a bit extra. I don't understand why forsa are saying nothing.

Nigel Fairservice · 30-06-2023 9:32am

The latest Forsa bulletin mentions the circular. No specific mention of the 3 year rule, it just mentions 'clear guidance around leave carry forward'. The main focus of their article about it seems to be on the ability to borrow 2 days leave from next years allowance if needed.

leanbh · 30-06-2023 10:21am

So Forsa are spinning a reduction in civil service terms and conditions as a positive?

Why?

This is very strange.

leanbh · 30-06-2023 10:44am

I've read the forsa bulletin on this.

It talks about the ability to borrow 2 days leave from next year's allowance .

But I could already do this! That's in the old circular.

And it doesn't give certainty. Obviously, the civil service have to comply with their minimum legal obligations.. but they were doing this under the old circular and more!

Looks like civil service have taken out the "more" and forsa have no problem with that.

TaurenDruid · 30-06-2023 11:51am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120786141#Comment_120786141

This is par for the course. Remember the "We've gotten our pre-Haddington Road hours restored! You'll only work 7:00 hours/day from now on." Except pre-HRA, we didn't used to work 7 hours/day, we used to work 6:57.

Sure, that's "only" three minutes a day - who gives a **** about three minutes? But those three minutes works out to over a full working day and a half, over a full year! And I bet there were a good few motions at ADC calling for the union to seek an extra day's leave or more for members...

30-06-2023 12:25pm

Its looking more and more like CPSU and PSEU amalgamating with Fórsa was a huge mistake.

NapoleonInRags · 30-06-2023 7:05pm

.i

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120780271#Comment_120780271

branch AGMs - the reaction was positive at the one I attended

Kirbi · 30-06-2023 8:25pm

Same here - heard about it at a branch meeting for AHCPS.

TheJet · 01-07-2023 8:36am

This circular hasn’t made its way to my dept yet. Not in union either - better things to spend my money on

Annual leave Civil Service circular 08/2023

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