Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Criminal Justice (Incitement to Violence or Hatred and Hate Offences) Bill 2022 - Read OP

Options
15354565859143

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It's just the most influential democracy on the entire planet and far ahead of us in dealing with these issues and ill thought out concepts that legalise discriminatory practices rather than pursue meritocracy


    I’d love to know what objective standard you’re basing your opinion on seeing as the US has failed to ratify numerous international human rights treaties, and those that they have ratified? Only when they could include numerous exceptions which they claim were already provided for in domestic law, with the result that these same international treaties can’t be invoked in US Courts.

    As for being far ahead of us in dealing with these issues, well, like I said earlier - they do things the same, but differently. In the case you were so giddy about earlier, the facts were that Harvard, Yale and UNC were using the provisions of the 1964 Civil Rights Act which permitted affirmative action, but they were taking the piss, favouring black students at every stage of the selection process, at the expense of Asian and white students. It took years to get before the Supreme Court.

    As for ‘pursuing meritocracy’, you accused another poster of gaslighting earlier, your own examples a doozy. The education system in the US isn’t based on meritocracy, it’s based on affordability, and entry into Ivy League schools even more so! The schools in question could take a few token blacks among the student population because it meant they received billions in Federal funding for affirmative action programs.

    The Supreme Court decided that yeah, they’re taking the piss, best put a stop to that because it was never the intent of affirmative action or Civil Rights legislation. They were 60 years overdue, quite the opposite of your claim that the US are ‘well ahead of us in dealing with these issues and ill thought out concepts that legalise discriminatory practices rather than pursue meritocracy’.


    Asian Americans have been systemically discriminated against for near on 30 years but because they are Asian somehow it's ok to fuk them over.

    Well it's not, not now, not ever and that applies to all groups not just selected ones


    Oh give over, earlier in the this very thread your complaint about the bill in question was that it would mean white men would be treated unfairly; now you’re getting all indignant about the treatment of Asians in the US. Have you forgotten that the cases you’re referring to were also based upon demonstrating unlawful discrimination against white students?

    All you’re demonstrating is the idea of the ‘model minority’ stereotype. It’s not just Asian Americans who have been historically fcuked over, black people too have been historically fcuked over in the US. This isn’t even disputable. It was the intent of the Civil Rights Act in 1964 to address these injustices and inequality in the US. The stereotypes of American Asians which fuel the ‘meritocracy’ myth are just as racist as the stereotypes which fuel the low expectations of black Americans. The outcomes are that Americans are just less likely to treat some American Asians unfavourably, than they are to treat black Americans unfairly.


    https://globaljusticecenter.net/blog/773-u-s-aversion-to-international-human-rights-treaties

    https://archive.ph/c5OeW

    https://www.npr.org/2021/05/25/999874296/6-charts-that-dismantle-the-trope-of-asian-americans-as-a-model-minority



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,329 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock



    You didn't raise an issue regarding gender - you stated an opinion, I disagree with it, it had nothing to do with your argument that the bill creates a hierarchy, we move on. Well, back.


    What specific race, sex or gender has been referenced in the bill, thus creating a hierarchy, and in what section of the bill?

    None. No specific gender is referenced in the bill.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭TokTik


    There are only 2 sexes, male and female according to the definitions you’ve provided. So how is there tens, if not hundreds, of genders if gender is based on sex? Male and female



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,329 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    There are two sexes - correct - but you asked for the definitions of genders, not sexes.

    Not going any further, I've explained this more than at least three times and at this point you're just reading what you want to read and not what'a actually there. We're done here.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,451 ✭✭✭TokTik


    Your explanations of gender are all based on sex. Did you even read the links you posted??



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 10,995 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    Most of the definitions people give for gender are reductionist bollocks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,329 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I've given official definitions from two worldwide respected dictionaries and the World Health Organisation - can't do more that that, which is why I'm not getting involved any more. If you want to ignore said official sources and and believe what you want to believe instead, then on you and there's nothing I can or want to do that'll make continuing in any way practical.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,602 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    You have been given lots of definitions, and they explain it very well. You either can't understand or just don't want to. Either way, that's really your issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    It makes reference to protected characteristics, these same characteristics will create a hierarchy

    I'm asking you to address one, just one the simplest of all male v female v sex v gender



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    Engough with the strawmans, if that's the only way you can debate then you've already lost

    I pointed at a country further down the path that we are on, that's why they are relevant, that's why they will remain relevant, that's why we shouldn't repeat the mistakes they have made.

    The objective standard is they have been trying to get things right by passing laws for at least the last 70 years only to overturn them because they are discriminatory

    If you want to embrace systemic discrimination by supporting the bill go ahead but at least own it, at least admit to holding racist, sexist, hibernophobe views; people would at least respect that for the honesty



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Lol. You are twisting this completely on its head. Its absolutely hilarious to see you claim people who stand against racism and sexism are the racists and sexists. By your twisted and absurd nonsensical logic you are racist against White Americans because you complained Asian Americans have been fuked over.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    I didn’t bring a decision of the Supreme Court in the US into this discussion, you did, and from the way you’re talking it’s clear you still don’t fully grasp it’s importance or it’s implications for schools like Harvard and USC, or the origins of the issue. You claimed on the basis of that decision alone that the US are way ahead of us in these matters, which is why I was interested in the objective standard you were using to measure that difference. It turns out you don’t have one.

    I was supportive of the bill anyway, because I understand it’s intent, as opposed to your misreading of it in order to claim anyone who doesn’t share your perspective holds racist, sexist, hibernophobic views. That way I don’t have to concern myself with your views at all, nor do I feel any need to be respected by you. Existing legislation already takes care of that, and now it’s being extended to protect even more people from prejudice and unlawful discrimination.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,602 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    What do you think the Equality Act 1998 is about?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,780 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    The article said toilet not changing rooms.

    Quite a bit of a difference especially for young women during that time of the month.

    In regards is there anything stopping a male entering, well anyone who sees a male entering into a women's only toilet may intervene is one example.

    The reason for women's only toilets is to reduce risk of assaults happening.

    Would you not agree men freely allowed into women's toilets without question makes it more likely an assault can happen?

    In regards your last point, yes I am sure several women do feel that, again do you not care about their concerns?

    Or is it just tough I don't care about you feeling safe, I care more about men's rights?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,602 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    There is nothing to stop anyone walking into any toilets. Having a picture of a man or woman on the door isn't the kind of magic protection you think it is!

    The reason for women only toilets is to stop assaults happening? Really? Where did you get that piece of information?

    And it's worrying that you believe all men and boys to be predators.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    The whole "men might get a gender recognition cert so they can go into women's toilets to sexually assault" is laughable nonsense. We have had self ID laws here for 8 years and almost no problems. Trans women have been using women's toilets for many many years too.

    The idea of forcing toilet bans on trans people is crazy too because

    A: Cis Butch women will be harassed for supposedly being in the wrong toilet

    B: It forces trans men into using women's toilets

    C: It's unworkable unless you have genital inspectors at every single toilet

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,780 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    The case was nothing to do with a trans person and my response was nothing to do with a trans person.

    Feel free to read it again and respond to the points I made.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,780 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    There is the possibility of someone intervening if it was a women's only toilet.

    That is a fact which you can try deny but it will remain a fact.

    I don't recall saying women's only toilets is to stop assaults.

    I said its to reduce risk of assaults happening.

    Like most things in life we put things in place to reduce risk.

    Why do you think we have always had women's toilets?

    It's very worrying you think no men and boys are predators and pose no risk.

    In real life there are many men and boys who are predators.

    In the article a boy who is a predator used this to attack someone.

    I would be of the opinion that preventing physical harm to one person is more important than hurting someone's feeling.

    While you seem to be of the opinion no men or boys could be predators and therefore we shouldn't put processes in place for women's safety.

    We all wish that's a world we live in but unfortunately we don't.

    That is a very worrying attitude and thankfully not the way most people think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,602 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    Well unfortunately all people are capable of carrying out some horrendous attacks on others. Everyone. That is actually the world we live in. I don't believe most people spend their days worrying about being attacked though!

    The fascination with toilets is just wierd. Most women and children are attacked, assaulted or raped by people they know. Husbands, brothers, fathers etc.

    If you actually look at the facts, then in order to reduce attacks, we should take all men away and isolate them. Which of course is ridiculous!

    Random attacks are rare, thankfully. Random attacks in toilets are even rarer!

    I have been in plenty of restaurants in Dublin where the toilets are together in the same small area. I have literally never thought, not once, that I could be attacked by a man in the toilets.

    Seperate toilet facilities, if there is space is grand, but so are unisex toilets.

    Tbh, if an establishment wants to set up a 'safe area' for women......I'd prefer if it was some nice area, not a smelly old toilet



  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Hodger


    So Waterford Whispers have received a letter from the church of scientology accusing them of " hate speech " .

    As I said what one perceives at " hate speech " is entirely subjective .



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger




  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    I refereed to the similarity in a democracy which is striking down laws that objectively discriminate hoping you would gain insight that perhaps we should learn from their mistakes

    You then choose to go off on a strawman because you ran from acknowledging the mistaken path we are on that they have already walked

    Similarly I can't help it if you are a sexist, sectarian, racist and want to admonish and destroy the universality of equal treatment



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    No, I'm advocating for universality and blind justice. It is those trying to destroy this that are dangerous. They may lack the intellect to understand but they remain dangerous

    Actuality White Americans nether gained or lost advantage in admissions. Hispanic and black Americans gained at Asian Americans expense, specifically inferior applicants were granter privilege because of their skin colour. The absolute definition of racism



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    But there was no law struck down? That’s where you appear to be fundamentally mistaken - the Supreme Court found in that case that Harvard and UNC had engaged in unlawful discrimination by usurping the intent of legislation to provide for affirmative action. The law itself which provides for affirmative action, remains intact.

    Post edited by One eyed Jack on


  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    🤣🤣🤣

    Everyone's stupider than you

    Your posts are hilarious and can't be taken seriously when you paint yourself as over intelligent and everyone else as lacking intelligence. Thanks for the laughs 👍

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 835 ✭✭✭mazdamiatamx5


    Can anyone explain to me in practical layman's terms what this bill means? I certainly have no intention of reading the proposed legislation, and most of those who are commenting on it haven't either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,329 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock



    You're going to get into trouble for saying or writing something 'hateful' about someone else's race/gender/orientation/ethnic background/possibly something else - even if there's no evidence that it was malicious or that you intended to do anything illegal based on your thoughts.

    The Powers that Be refuse to define 'hateful' though, and there's a perception that this is intentional, so that they can basically target as many people as possible. A lot of people are worried that what they say/write will be misinterpreted as hate when it's just disagreement, this infringing on their free speech.

    Potentially hate opinions for example: there are only two genders, homosexuality is immoral, immigrants are lazy/criminals/only coming to Ireland for welfare handouts, catholics are evil and so on.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    We actually don't full know yet what this bill means, or how it will be utilised.

    Some think it's urgently needed and it will be used to tackle serious hate speech and others think it will be used to criminalise things that offend certain people by labelling it as hate speech. There are also elements of this bill that, if charged, you will have to prove your innocence rather than the State having to prove your guilt.

    Truth be told, none of us know where this bill will take us. It certainly has the power to shut down free speech or label criticism as hate speech because some elements in it are very vague.



  • Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭Hodger


    Sharon Keogan gives the jist of one section, section 15 in particular covering warrants.




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 7,602 ✭✭✭suvigirl




Advertisement