Cyclists' responsibility for their own safety warning infractions given liberally for trolling etc

03-07-2023 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799899#Comment_120799899

I just can't understand why someone wouldn't take every precaution they can to make themselves as visible as possible, including lights and high viz - it just makes no sense to me.

It shouldn't have to be a legal requirement, it should just be common sense.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799963#Comment_120799963

Need pictures of your car with upgraded lights and hi viz.

magicbastarder · 03-07-2023 2:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799963#Comment_120799963

we should ban black cars so? the gardai make every precaution to make their cars as visible as possible, so all motorists should.

as per other comments above - when cycling in the dark, i have two lights in front and two lights at the back. i have an unscientific opinion that making your shoes more visible is much better than wearing a hi-vis jacket. for two reasons, your feet move in relation to the bike and have a biomechanical motion that is more visible. secondly, they're more likely to be caught by dipped beams, which are a hell of a lot brighter below waist level.

i do also wear jackets that can be described as hi-vis in some way, but that's more to prevent a 'he's responsible for his own misfortune' accusations than any belief in their efficacy.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 2:53pm

Goths banned from going out at night.,

blanch152 · 03-07-2023 2:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120797494#Comment_120797494

Up until now, like you, I have always seen them. But that is as much luck as anything else.

A small distraction, e.g. another cyclist in dark clothing, a truck with bright lights, etc. and I might miss the next cyclist.

We all see the cyclists until we don't. Lights on the bike, full reflective clothing, then I definitely will see them.

As a pedestrian, who has had more problems with cyclists than cars in the last few years, the wearing of reflective clothing in the evening is something I do all the time. Just yesterday, while walking a dog in a shared space with cyclists, I was nearly knocked down twice, first by a cyclist on an electric-assisted bike, then by a scooter. Neither used a bell, neither slowed down to take care of a pedestrian, neither was wearing reflective clothing.

We all have our part to play, motorists, cyclists and pedestrians alike. In the particular case of the OP, both the driver and the cyclists were engaged in unacceptable behaviour. Neither should be defended.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799996#Comment_120799996

The question is did you AND the dog have hi viz AND lights on.

Thelonious Monk · 03-07-2023 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799963#Comment_120799963

to be fair, you could say the same thing about pedestrians, they seem to be hit regularly by motorists on both the roads and footpaths, but even with the risks people just can't be arsed. I've never worn high vis and probably never will as I have only really cycled in urban areas.

o1s1n · 03-07-2023 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799981#Comment_120799981

Car colour is actually an interesting one, you're statistically more probable to be in an accident in a black car over a white one. Makes sense really.

I commute cycle every day myself and have noticed that on some particularly grey, rainy days, some matt grey / silver type cars which seem quite in at the moment do go stealth mode a little bit.

blanch152 · 03-07-2023 3:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800006#Comment_120800006

Hi-viz and lights are difficult for dogs, they don't like them, they are unnatural, forcing them to wear them can be considered as animal cruelty. However, in winter, yes, the dog has hi-viz and lights as the risks outweigh the discomfort. So, no to yesterday. All my own jackets have hi-viz elements but I don't wear a light even if the cyclists might expect me to.

https://www.petstop.ie/collections/dog-dog-collars-harnesses-leads-high-visibility?_gl=1*c71m6i*_up*MQ..*_ga*MTQzNTYzNjg1Mi4xNjg4Mzk2Njc1*_ga_PH6JVP4JW9*MTY4ODM5NjY3NC4xLjEuMTY4ODM5NjY5NC4wLjAuMA..&gclid=CjwKCAjw44mlBhAQEiwAqP3eVojrpaaBY-wEBmxr4pIPfDke5mWXXyKF8zS0tvuAWsDjR2Eh-u00rRoCt2wQAvD_BwE

Petshop have plenty of hi-viz for dogs so no excuse for dark winter nights. In summer, the temperatures make some of these oppressive for dogs.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800030#Comment_120800030

That could simply because there are more black cars.

Macy0161 · 03-07-2023 3:08pm

Thread successfully derailed... but if someone driving doesn't see me with my german standard front and rear light, plus my garmin varia radar rear light, I really don't see a builders vest making much difference. The biggest cloak of invisibility is the phone in the drivers eyeline distracting them, not what people outside the car are wearing.

03-07-2023 3:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799981#Comment_120799981

To be honest, I've had this argument before about black and dark coloured cars before (lather, rinse, repeat) and I'm not going to indulge in it. It's merely an attempt at deflection from the real issue.

If cyclists / PPT users don't want to take every precaution to be as safe as possible, like I said earlier, fine.

But if they come a cropper, well, as I also said earlier, on their own heads be it.

They can't refuse to take every precaution available to them to keep safe after dark, and then turn around and claim someone else's eyesight is the problem when accidents happen.

What's that motto?

BE SAFE. BE SEEN.

blanch152 · 03-07-2023 3:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800049#Comment_120800049

As a driver, I would disagree. You aren't looking out my windscreen so you wouldn't know what I can see best. The hi-viz jacket makes a big difference, like it or not.

As a pedestrian, it makes an even bigger difference, if a cyclist wears hi-viz.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 3:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800042#Comment_120800042

You can see lights further away than hi viz. If no light hits the hi viz it doesn't light up. Most cycle lights don't throw the beam that far. So won't pick up a vest, until you are on top of it. So while you think you can be seen in your hi viz, you can't, at least not soon enough.

Macy0161 · 03-07-2023 3:20pm

The vast vast majority of my road use is driving a vehicle. I wear an RBS jacket commuting on the bike not because I genuinely think it makes a difference, only to not anyone off the hook should the worst happen. For leisure cycling the below remains my most effective "hi viz"... "Recording my journey" more effective than any reflective material I know of!

magicbastarder · 03-07-2023 3:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800059#Comment_120800059

'i'm going to advance an argument and then not going to justify why i expect it only from one side' is pretty disingenuous. you're saying the actual colour of cyclists is key and then refuse the rather obvious observation that that should also apply to vehicles?

'the people suffering from the danger must go the extra mile' is an inversion of the standard triangle for safety. and notice where PPE comes. remember - this triangle deals with what causes the danger, not who is exposed to it.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800059#Comment_120800059

In that 2nd photo the bike is lit by at one or more other light sources. You can see the colour of the bike frame. Which is why the vest is also lit. (and the stop of the helmet). Even the road surface is better lit.

The first picture isn't. So it's all staged.

Strumms · 03-07-2023 3:25pm

Can anyone say why so many cyclists are so poorly or not at all lit ? It’s not as if modern USB chargeable lighting is expensive or difficult to maintain.

you can purchase a front and back rechargeable light and get them delivered for about 25 euros. Buy two sets and keep one set spare…. It’s common sense.

A hi-vis will cost you under a tenner. Buy two, keep one spare.

no point in cyclists asking drivers of cars, vans and trucks to do their bit but won’t entertain doing their own to make roads safer. 😵‍💫

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 3:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800132#Comment_120800132

Totally the lack of enforcement.

Usually on a bike it makes sense to have two front and two rear in case one fails. Having a the spare set at home in box isn't much use.

HI Viz was designed to make people stand out in the day. It's the reflectors that work at night. But not as well as lights.

magicbastarder · 03-07-2023 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800062#Comment_120800062

worth pointing out in relation to hi-vis - there are usually two components to what people refer to as hi-vis jackets.

the first is the flourescent material they're primarily made from; these are no better than a simple brightly coloured jacket at night because AFAIK what is needed for them to flouresce is UV light falling on them. which is absent at dusk/night, and is not a component in the light the vast majority of headlights produce.

the second is the retroreflective belt. these reflect light directly back at a light source, and that relates back to the comment i made about dipped headlights earlier; one anecdote which highlighted (!) the issue to me was years ago i was cycling on the cycle path near east point business park, and a lad was on a bike in front of me and i was muttering to myself that he had no lights on. but then, a motorist who was behind us turned on his full beams and i was nearly blinded; the cyclist in front of me was wearing a pro-viz jacket; which if you're not familiar with them, are made entirely from retroreflective material. and it was worthless till that motorist hit the full beams.

however, you can be guaranteed that cyclist thought he was the bees knees, having spent significant money (€150+ IIRC) on a piece of hi-vis equipment which was less effective than a €10 light. and that's the frustrating thing, going by the RSA literature, it's all about the jackets, and many cyclists buy that message.

o1s1n · 03-07-2023 3:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800132#Comment_120800132

Laziness. You've to put effort into having them - ie, buy them, charge them regularly, make sure you take care of them.

The path of least resistance is to have none at all.

I've been caught out a couple of times over the years on my own commute (had my lights stolen this winter and didn't have any backups to get home with unfortunately) and it's really not a pleasant experience at all. I don't know how anyone can cycle around like that and feel in any way safe.

monument · 03-07-2023 4:08pm

I thought this thread has reach it's productive end... but on request, I've reopened this thread.

magicbastarder · 03-07-2023 4:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800175#Comment_120800175

i think that's the experience of a lot of people, if they don't carry the lights around with them all the time (e.g. take them with them when they pop into the shops), they'll soon be nicked.

03-07-2023 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800108#Comment_120800108

'i'm going to advance an argument and then not going to justify why i expect it only from one side' is pretty disingenuous. you're saying the actual colour of cyclists is key and then refuse the rather obvious observation that that should also apply to vehicles?

There are no "sides" here. That's a big part of your problem. You see everything as "sides".

Making nonsense arguments about the colour of much larger and brightly lit vehicles on the road is what is disingenuous. As an aside, have you seen the recent thread on the brightness of headlights?

Imagine telling someone they need to "justify" what should be plain common sense, and ultimately in their own best interest. 🤦

Jesus wept.

magicbastarder · 03-07-2023 4:43pm

"I just can't understand why someone wouldn't take every precaution they can to make themselves as visible as possible, including lights and high viz - it just makes no sense to me."

*your* emphasis on the 'as possible', not mine. but you apply that to cyclists only - not motorists. and that's what's called taking sides. you are literally stating that cyclists should change the colour of their clothes but think the corresponding argument in relation to cars is nonsense to the point of absurdity.

it's common sense that *if* black cars are involved in more collisions that white, maybe we should consider legislation on car colour. based on your opinion about taking every precaution possible, i cannot countenance why you would object to that.

FWIW my car is black.

03-07-2023 4:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800062#Comment_120800062

Apparently, it's a sheer coincidence that you notice those wearing high viz, and if you don't see the ones not wearing it, then it's because your eyesight must be bad, @blanch152.

A cyclist said so.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 4:56pm

Confirmation bias.

Only seeing (and hearing) what you want to.

Then doubling down with a litany of fake facts and proofs.

blanch152 · 03-07-2023 5:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800445#Comment_120800445

A very good point, but in fact, we do make changes to cars. There are regulations around cars being lit up in a way that is most beneficial for them to be seen, e.g. fog lights, dipped lights in rain etc. If there is evidence that changing the colour of cars would make a difference, let's see us. Even Cycling Weekly concedes that hi viz and lighting up makes a difference to the safety of cyclists.

https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/what-is-the-evidence-that-wearing-hi-vis-clothing-makes-you-a-safer-cyclist-358674

blanch152 · 03-07-2023 5:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800088#Comment_120800088

I am not suggesting either or, I am suggesting both. You also need to take into account that a cyclist travelling forward won't necessarily notice that their rear light has failed. The hi-viz jacket as opposed to a black jacket could be the difference between being seen at the last minute and not being seen.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800531#Comment_120800531

Bit of rubbish article. Makes no distinction between no hi viz or hi viz and lights or lights only. Your sweeping generalisation is similarly vague and not specific.

It does mention that its hi viz is intended for day use and reflectors are what more efficient at night. So it complete refutes the dogma on this thread for hi viz at night.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 5:17pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800541#Comment_120800541

That's an argument for two rear lights. Not a vastly lesser alternative of Hi Viz designed for daylight.

03-07-2023 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800445#Comment_120800445

I never said cyclists should "change the colour of their clothes" - more disingenuousness on your part.

Putting on a high vis belt or vest when starting your journey, is adding an additional item. I really don't see why this is such a problem.

And I also apply it to motorcyclists and pedestrians if they're walking after dark, and in particular, schoolkids.

I drove a motorbike for years, I wore leathers to protect my body, a crash helmet to protect my head and a high vis vest so I could be seen better by other road users, as my commute in the winter was usually in the dark and sometimes dark and wet. In other words, I did everything I could do to be as safe and seen as possible.

If high vis is as worthless as you seem to think it is, then why is it worn on every building site? Why do the Gardai and first responders wear it at accident sites?

Your argument about cars colours is still nonsense.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 5:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800617#Comment_120800617

Its so they can been seen during the DAY. Its the reflective strips that are seen at night. Jeez. How often does this need to be repeated.

Spook_ie · 03-07-2023 5:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799981#Comment_120799981

The Garda paint/mark their cars so that people can differentiate between a marked Garda car and Joe Soap in his Dyno-Rod van.

Night time visibility of cars is taken care of by the RTA to have lights on a vehicle and to use them under certain conditions but as Flinty would say no enforcement means people get away with Blue/Pink tinted lights, Blown bulbs, Misaligned lights etc. that only get picked up ( if we're lucky ) during a cars NCT.

It is hightime that enforcement of lighting regulation were enforced for all road users that are subject to them. Also probably time that a safety campaign aimed at pedestrians was forthcoming. just because you can see me DOESN'T mean I can see you.

Showing my age now but I still remeber the Wear Something Light at Night campaigns

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyW6Zi2Usfs

Spook_ie · 03-07-2023 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800030#Comment_120800030

Is it a legal requirement as in the UK to use dipped headlights when visibility is less than 100m? I thought there was some legislation pertaining to it but Google is not showing up a lot in relation to Ireland even the RotR is scant with information on using dipped headlights during rain and only refers to heavy rain

Use dipped headlights: just after the beginning (dusk) and before the end (dawn) of lighting-up hours; as long as they are needed to let you see clearly; when stopped in traffic; when meeting other traffic; in built-up areas where there is good street lighting; on continuously lit roads outside built-up areas; when following behind another vehicle; where there is dense fog, falling snow or heavy rain; when daylight is fading; and generally to avoid inconveniencing other traffic

Spook_ie · 03-07-2023 6:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800651#Comment_120800651

To be fair. People need to realise when they talk about HIViz it is usualy a combination of the two types. A photoflourescent element and a reflective element. If a garment is to meet EN471 class 1,2 or 3 approval it MUST combine the two elements.

https://www.hivis.net/blog/57/high-visibility-standards-explained-bs-en-471/

I'm not even sure if you can buy purely photoflourescent garments in shops

Weepsie · 03-07-2023 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800122#Comment_120800122

Plus you can see the cyclist in both anyway.

standardg60 · 03-07-2023 6:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800709#Comment_120800709

Using dipped headlights during the day has historically been a bit of a no-no here, i remember having a Volvo during the nineties which automatically ran with dipped lights and ended up disabling it after several comments, from drivers and pedestrians, as to why they were on!

Thankfully things have moved on with drl's and light and speed sensors, but you'll still get drivers here who'll never put them on unless it's dark. Still remember hiring a car on the continent over a decade ago and during the day getting flashed by nearly every driver i passed, didn't know why until i realised i didn't have the dips on, it's just the norm there.

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800663#Comment_120800663

I think our understanding of safety has moved on from the 1970s wearing a light coloured flashers coat

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 6:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800784#Comment_120800784

Street lights and car lights. Who are they trying fool.

Spook_ie · 03-07-2023 6:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800784#Comment_120800784

But surely even you must agree that one of them is easier to see than the other and therefore easier to spot in traffic?

Flinty997 · 03-07-2023 6:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800763#Comment_120800763

I think some people have made enough factual errors at this point that it's safe to assume they haven't a clue how any of this works.

You can buy coloured clothing that is not yellow, might even be black that is highly reflective due to the reflective strips in it.

Spook_ie · 03-07-2023 6:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800810#Comment_120800810

The principle still holds and avoids the litany of comments about HiViz for pedestrians as well. Though I have no objection to legislation that would add HiViz panels to runners and shoes

standardg60 · 03-07-2023 6:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800617#Comment_120800617

Whilst i agree with you that it's a good idea to make yourself as visible as possible it's a moot point in relation to this case. At what point do you think the victim should have been noticed? Before he was hit, during, or afterwards? Cos it would seem he never was, do you not find it weird that the driver's statement about the incident was omitted from the coroner? Who would that have benefitted, the driver or the guards handling the case? Certainly not the victim.

There was an incident last year where a driver arrived home with a guard's leg stuck in her grill, in broad daylight. How much hi-viz do you think he should have been wearing to avoid being hit?