BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Manc-Red_ · 30-06-2023 2:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120787033#Comment_120787033

Definitely a route that will have passengers. I was on it approx 3 pm and it was 75% full after Grange cross

tnegun · 30-06-2023 6:23pm

The W61 is pretty lightly loaded any time I've seen it but is getting some use, the college and schools are all closed plus a lot of people still aren't aware of its existence s thats bound to impact loadings. I gained the route 2 more passengers today in the office who had been using the train to Druncondra from Maynooth and switching to a Park Tunnel Service to get to Park West they were completely unaware of the route despite it driving past them in Griffen Rath!

Polar101 · 01-07-2023 12:50am

Tried the W61.. it followed a C4 from Maynooth, and I just missed the L58 I wanted to catch in Celbridge. There was an L59 due, but of course that was "scheduled" and didn't show up. The next L58 didn't show up either, so I got on the next L59.. which picked a lot of angry passengers who said the previous two were cancelled.

W61 had about 5 passengers on, but I guess most people got on the C4.

Going from Maynooth to Celbridge, the W61 has a stop called "Maynooth Station", but I'm not sure if it actually exists in that direction.

I guess the route is pretty useful if you want to go to/from Hazelhatch station, but I might wait for the full W6.

brianc89 · 01-07-2023 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120790181#Comment_120790181

Wow a ringing endorsement. Well done DB and GAI.

TranslatorPS · 01-07-2023 2:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120786485#Comment_120786485

Remember two facts: up until 2019, DB didn't care about intermediate timings as there was no union agreement to hold buses back, so they didn't need to calculate anything en-masse, and similarly enough, up until BC, they didn't care about spreading departures on multiple routes at a given location apart evenly. It might be the case that the schedulers on staff are just so well versed in duty cutting the manual way in Excel, they don't see the point in introducing dedicated software, especially at this point in time when they'd have to spend time learning the software when they have bills to be churning out – garages are now shifting towards groups of routes working from a single bill rather than the previously dominant approach of "single route single bill".

Mind you, back in the 1980s the CIE did have a piece of software dedicated to dutycutting, but interestingly enough it took in a target number of duties before generating the duty cut, no doubt (in my eyes at least) a side effect of the inflexible standard rosters in use in DB.

And again, DB do have specialised software, but it only sees use once the duties are drawn up – it's used for AVL and TGX data feeding and for the rostering systems.

Spanish Eyes · 01-07-2023 4:38pm

Am I doing something wrong here? Just checking the W4 departures from Liffey Valley on TFI live app. Honest to god, I couldn't find a way to identify where the stop is actually situated. I mean I know now, but it is not intuitive from the app. I'd have thought that if you tapped the stop number on the departures screen it would instantly show you where the stop is. Nope, not for me anyway, had to do a dance around the app first.

Look, I'm probably stupid, but even if I am surely the app should be a lot more user friendly? I'm not impressed with it one bit compared to the previous incarnation.

Anyway, the new routes sound good, let's hope they work out. The connection from Blanchardstown to the Square is huge, and long overdue.

trellheim · 01-07-2023 7:39pm

The stops on the TFI app are in the wrong places in some locations.

Just got caught by that factoid yesterday

dfx- · 02-07-2023 12:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120771522#Comment_120771522

I didn't see the front of the W62 bus...but tonight looking at the W4 in either direction, the front displayed the destination in English and Irish one above the other.

No via point. And neither did the side display.

p_haugh · 02-07-2023 1:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120793753#Comment_120793753

I believe the W4 says "via Liffey Valley" (going towards Blanch at least)

KD345 · 02-07-2023 9:02am

These are the displays used.

W4

The Square

An Chearnóg

Blanchardstown SC

IS Bhaile Bhlainseir

W61

Stn Chollchoille

Hazelhatch and

Celbridge Station

Coláiste Pobail

Maynooth

Community College

W62

The Square

An Chearnóg

St Finian’s NS

Newcastle

SN Naomh Finín

They could be better. The Irish on the W61 and W62 just translates to “Community College” and “St Finian’s NS” with no place name. The W4 needs a via point, either via Citywest, via Grange Castle, or via N4 Liffey Valley.

bk · 03-07-2023 2:30pm

I have always said that using Parnell Square as a handover point is absolutely ridiculous.

Having travelled all over Europe I’ve never seen any change over point be just one stop short of where most passengers are going! It is completely crazy, specially when it impacts the 16, an airport route. I’ve seen so many confused tourists on the 16 here.

it just isn’t good enough and it reflects very poorly on Ireland and reflects on DB’s poor focus on passengers needs. Frankly it is like something out of the 1950’s

They really need to stop with this rubbish. And don’t give me any nonsense about rosters, etc.

It just needs fixing, stop using Parnell Place as a change over point, either use OCS or even better the route starting points.

if that requires changing rosters, then so be it.

We aren’t some poor country stuck in the 50’s, we can afford and most fix customer hostile services like this.

I’ll be as mad as hell if this nonsense continues when BusConnects A corridor is rolled out. Imagine spending probably 100’s of millions to do the infrastructure side of BusConnects, only to have busses on one of the most important corridors sitting around for minutes or worse at Parnell Square!

LXFlyer · 03-07-2023 3:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799560#Comment_120799560

The reason is quite simple - the drivers' canteen is on Earl Place, and handover points in the city centre have to be within a certain walking distance of that. The changeover locations also need to be suitable for leaving a bus to lay over, in the event of a driver not being available.

I certainly don't see that changing, so I'd prepare yourself to be "as mad as hell" now rather than later.

All of the Spines so far use the existing handover points (Eden Quay, Aston Quay, Bachelors Walk). and there are no new facilities for drivers being provided.

You also have to remember that pretty much any other alternative locations for bus stands in the city centre on the north/south axis have all been removed by stealth over the last decade either by cycle lanes or LUAS lines.

As for changing at the start of the routes - the majority of termini on Dublin city bus routes are nowhere near any facilities for drivers to take a break, which would mean a lot of dead running to/from depots which is a much more inefficient way to run the service. They do that with some duties, but to do it with them all again means you need far more drivers to run the same service.

Btw I totally get your frustration but there are two side to this. Staff need facilities for taking breaks. I am pretty sure that the unions have been asking the NTA to deal with that and provide toilet facilities at the termini for some time with no progress.

bk · 03-07-2023 3:47pm

Again, I understand why, I know where the canteen is, what I’m saying is that it simply isn’t good enough and there is no reason why it can’t be changed as part of a projects as big as BusConnects.

We of course should be building toilet and canteen facilities for drivers at the new out of city termini and those should become the handover locations, not the city center. Just like 99% of other countries.

Dublin Airport would be a good location for the 16, etc.

In the meantime, they can adjust the rosters, have OCS as the change over location and if the replacement driver isn’t there, then perhaps an inspector can take over and swing it back up to Parnell Square.

The current setup simply isn’t acceptable. Absolute madness to be spending 2 billion on BusConnects, just to have people sitting around on buses on Parnell Square!

Daith · 03-07-2023 3:55pm

Maybe some baby steps and having drivers know way in advance if there is a change of driver available.

I'd agree that's there's a lack of vision with this type of stuff. At no point should a Dublin Bus driver be telling people it will be quicker to walk to O'Connell St from Parnell St because they're waiting for another driver.

LXFlyer · 03-07-2023 4:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799992#Comment_120799992

To be fair, the vast majority of the time the drivers do know in advance - that's why there are 14C, 15C, 16C etc. buses going around during the day - they are curtailed services.

It's very much the exception to the rule where they don't.

LXFlyer · 03-07-2023 4:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120799965#Comment_120799965

Well I've not seen anything to suggest that what you're advocating is going to happen I'm afraid, nor do DB have that many inspectors or drivers to act on standby to drive misplaced buses around, so gird your loins is my advice! :-)

I would ask out of curiosity, with the exception of where there are curtailed services due to lack of driver, how often are you left sitting around waiting for a new driver to show up?

It can happen of course, where maybe a driver was late breaking for whatever reason, but given that the buses all now have stop-by-stop timetables, and the AVLC box on the bus, they shouldn't be arriving at the stop early any more (which was the problem in the past).

Handovers usually only take a minute or two surely?

Citrus_8 · 03-07-2023 6:45pm

Handovers taking sometimes way over 3 min. Drivers cannot resist from exchanging the gossips or some small talks... very typical to Irish men to waste others' time and chat more than women does.

Midnight_EG · 03-07-2023 10:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800707#Comment_120800707

What's your issue with Dublin Bus, you've an argument for everything

Qrt · 03-07-2023 10:23pm

W4 very good, seems to be used quite a bit. It’s a bit slow but steady.

W62 today was very slow, but the running times on that route will likely vary a lot more than the W4. A lot of it is also to do with the route, extremely tight turns and narrow roads.

StreetLight · 03-07-2023 10:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120800707#Comment_120800707

Wow. Racism, sexism and hatred all in one post.

Stay classy.

Citrus_8 · 03-07-2023 10:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120801631#Comment_120801631

Thank you. Just mirroring the reality. However, I'm pleased with the reaction as obviously, my mind isn't as toxic as it may seem 🙂

Citrus_8 · 03-07-2023 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120801567#Comment_120801567

We can, of course, drop some words off. But it doesn't change the fact that DB isn't working as efficient as it could. It's a big clunky company with some senior management with an impressive experience which is a pro and con at the same time. Sometimes people have to be changed in the management. New winds can bring new ideas and a modernisation rather than a stagnation.

devnull · 03-07-2023 10:49pm

The last few posts have no place on this forum - please focus on the post and not the poster and refrain from all kinds of discrimination.

Moderator

Citrus_8 · 03-07-2023 10:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120801630#Comment_120801630

I noticed too that W4 is picking up. Especially between Lucan and Grange Castle Business Park and also between same and Tallaght/City West. Seen passengers appreciate the M50 connection between Lucan and Blanch too. People also use as an alternative to C1 & C2 between Liffey Valley SC and Lucan.

A bit disappointed about the lack of bus stop on the W4 between the New Nangor Road and Corkagh Park - there are lots of new South Dublin County Council houses and also some private housing - the whole new estate. But no pedestrian crossing. Surely, a bus stop and a pedestrain light is very needed here.

I wonder, perhaps D1 won't go to Lucan since W4 connection provided? I'd like to see D1 terminating at Grange Castle Business Park via Profile Park/Aryzta. Current 13 only does a few trips per day via Aryzta, but this part has extended quite a lot. Served by 68, but I think it could be improved.

Since W4 I don't see the reason for D1 to go to Lucan, especially having L54.

john boye · 04-07-2023 12:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120801567#Comment_120801567

Based on its grammar I assume it's just an AI account. Best ignored.

SEPT 23 1989 · 04-07-2023 12:13pm

…,

trellheim · 04-07-2023 12:30pm

I've been working in town these last couple of months, very close to O'Connell St.

There are two pinchpoints on the network that are hugely slowing things down

top of O'Connell St Northbound at the Rotunda : sitting on a 46a yesterday at 1745 I counted 11 buses and coaches waiting to turn left. One half-empty LUAS went through. This problem is not something "its too many cars " there are very few private cars here. - there needs to be a serious change here. The loss of the lane and the crowding of LUAS makes it ridiculous that one of the biggest busconnects throughpoints Almost immediately you go through you are waiting again at the southwestern corner of Parnell Square . This needs a serious unlocking. e.g temporary shift back to 2 traffic lanes, and give the buses full priority
Same point for College Green southbound . Buses should be able to use both lanes and the traffic lights should be massively reweighted towards number of large PSVs waiting to go south at the Westin hotel and NOT tram priority. Again, cars are only trivial here.
I can't see BC working properly without something like this to unblock these . Trams are important but its all part of a piece.

TranslatorPS · 04-07-2023 12:31pm

Regarding Parnell Square handovers, I've said it before but in different words: OCS cannot be a dumping place for buses out of service!

Aside from that, Parnell Square is within walking distance to the canteen, but also within walking distance to Summerhill garage, walking distance (and a short hop on the 4/9/155) to Phibsboro and Broadstone, served by the 4 and 13 to Harristown, by the 46A and 155 to Donnybrook, and within walking distance from the Quays for back when Conyngham Road had handovers there. Handover locations retain their historical precedence from the days of dropping cash at the garages, but regardless of that, they're still usually convenient locations for each schedule (aside from the Ringsend workings on the C Spine having occasional handovers in the Quays instead of the garage when the majority happens in the latter, I don't get why that's a thing).

Daith · 04-07-2023 1:38pm

OCS can't be a place for out of service buses, but that doesn't mean the practice of waiting for a handover at Parnell St when OCS is where most people will get on or off should be acceptable either.

If the bus driver knows there is a driver waiting for the handover at O'Connell St, what's the issue?

If they don't know the status of the bus driver that's a communication issue surely? It's hardly unsolvable.

I don't think people are on about out of service buses, or at least they're in service until there's no bus driver handover, which is when they become out of service. Again, a communications issue.

It just seems like it this is the way it has always been, doesn't matter about the redesign of a bus service or improving it, this isn't changing, and sure it's only the customer who gets inconvenienced.

TranslatorPS · 04-07-2023 2:10pm

The 11s and 44s do handovers at OCS (as I've mentioned before – not officially, as the working timetable has the handovers take place at Parnell Square!), but lo' and behold, they don't do them at their actual stops, but in spots that as far as I can tell are probably illegal – at least southbound, where they use the stretch of the road just south of the Spire, while northbound they do so around the Tours stops near 59 OCS. So it's a funny little thing – they do so, but not at service stops anyway...

Since people aren't happy about Parnell Square being a handover point when it's a stop before OCS, and since OCS is not feasible, and since termini don't have the facilities (nor the garage connectivity), then what else can we do? New locations south of the river? Sure, but now the argument is going to be turned on its head for the northbound services being a stop or two before the heavy drop off location of OCS.

I saw Dublin Airport mentioned as a potential breaking location for the 16s – infrastructurally fine, but practically not so, as travel time from the garage to the starting location and from the finishing location to the garage is built into duties, so in order to account for the extra travel that would be taking place between Summerhill and Dublin Airport, duties would have to do less work, meaning more drivers would be needed to cover the exact same service levels. As far as I can tell, that's not feasible nowadays, and it should come across as no surprise that it was probably one of the reasons why the 15 was taken out of Harristown: as an 8-hour duty would barely do 5-6 hours of work due to being given over an hour each way to get from Harristown to Eden Quay or vice versa. Of course you could have the 16 worked from Harristown, but then there's the questions of Ballinteer dead mileage and the taxis to bring drivers to and from the Airport to the garage.

(BTW, a connection from handover point to the garage was one of the reasons why Summerhill worked some night-time 15s instead of Donnybrook before the 39A was made 24/7 – drivers had no official way of getting from Donnybrook to Eden Quay or vice versa.)

On another note, I do believe that a lot of the southbound loadings on OCS routes are picked up south of the Liffey (routes like 13, 16, 123, their heavy city centre pick ups are College Green and the like), so while I get the frustration about waiting for a handover a stop before getting off, the waiting for a bus a stop after the handover argument is not as true in my experience.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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