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Marvel Cinematic Universe general stuff

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,214 ✭✭✭The White Wolf


    It was reported WB weren't satisfied enough with Man of Steel in order to greenlight a direct sequel, so that's where the shitstorm for them really began. BvS wasn't the original plan to come so soon after MoS. That's not necessarily down to Cavill, but there's enough there to believe they weren't confident in him.

    In comparison Marvel had no reason to not be confident in Larson leading a direct sequel given how much the first made, but I can't blame them for taking the safe bet with an ensemble piece. Generally I think the less there is of direct sequels the better.



  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 25,868 Mod ✭✭✭✭Doctor DooM


    We pretty much know for a fact WB lost faith in Schneider, not Cavill. They started interfering (and I think we can all agree, made everything even worse) from the second MoS didn't bring in a billion. Like this is just reality, they changed his plans on him, found a way to get him off Justice League and as the head of the DC films without publicly firing him, this is a thing that happened.


    Whereas with Marvel, they've clearly learned the magic sauce is the team up. The name is a nod to the fact that 2 of the 3 characters have been called Captain Marvel at one point and 2 of them have been called Ms. Marvel at one point. That's pretty obvious, no? Captain Marvel made a billion, they're not invested in any one director the same way, this is a completely different situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Are comicbook fans more men/boys than woman? Honestly, I don’t know, I’d be asking the same about Star Wars aswell.


    I ask because is the issue (with shoehorning woman into leading roles) simply that target audiences (mainly men) aren’t interested in seeing these characters for the sake of diversity? Or is there an equal split of fans and the female characters (and movies) just aren’t able to reach the male character levels of interest? I mean men only having interest in male role models is ok. They don’t have to like and support female role models because diversity.

    For all the talk of trolls and online negative stuff , there still is a serious lack of quality female lead roles/movies. And referring back to my first point, if the majority of the fanbase and movie goers are male, then part of the issue is trying to force men to simply enjoy watching female leads, cause diversity.

    This is an issue I have with franchises in particular. Let’s change something cause diversity. Not invent something new and better so the diversity element doesn’t stick out like a sore thumb. And a lot of the times the shoehorning is done poorly.

    Did Finn stick out in the new Star Wars? Not really, and I think there were more female characters aswell. But they lesbian kiss was totally out of sync with the movies. In the originals and prequels there was only kisses between han/leia/Luke and a anakin/padme , cause that’s all that was needed. Shoe horning in diversity stuff simply to shoehorn it in is annoying because it adds nothing to the movies and sticks out like bad dialogue.

    I have no issue with woman superhero’s or diversity stuff, it’s just there are times when it’s done very poorly and doesn’t do much for the cause it’s trying to promote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,905 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    The nonsense about trolls being to blame for Captain Marvels/Larson's woes never stood up to scrutiny. A minority of inbreds certainly do contribute on that negative side but their influence is dramatically overexagerated but the first movie just wasn't that great.

    I think Vellani should break out in a big way from The Marvels. Let her/Kamala be the focus. Her show was definitely a very bright spot in the very murky post-Endgame MCU.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    No shaming, just a quiet tease that your posts have trended towards a degree of "so this is also failing" which has made threads a bit of a succession of negativity; but by all accounts there's "something" going on in cinemas but it'd be a thread in of itself to speculate on the why; certainly Tom Cruise's efforts alone aren't getting people into the cinemas en masse, and it could be as simple that runaway budgets need to stop. Can't be a flop if your blockbuster costed $50 million (hello to Jason Blum). While Superhero Fatigue as it's called doesn't seem so certain with Across the Spider-Verse tearing it up.

    If there's any overlap with video games, then it's about 50/50 these days; recent stats came out to show video console ownership and playing is about half and half - while in the case of the Nintendo Switch, majority owners are women. Similar studies show many to most women play anonymously or without announcing their gender because invariably it attracts abuse and harassment.

    I think the issue is simpler than that: the internet is an echo chamber, and thanks to how human beings invariably slow up to watch a car crash ... negativity and toxicity gets overblown and overexposed. From critical drinkers to GB News to the Daily Mail: angry bias tends to get attention cos it's loud, vulgar and invites an emotive response and reaction. Twitter, YouTube and social media in general has basically solidified this a business model.

    Most people don't care about Woke in my experience in the real world (I've said before many people I've spoken IRL to had literally never heard the word before, or understood it's meaning when it was explained), and certainly wouldn't chart their media consumption based on whether a superhero was deaf, or a woman or whatnot. At worst you'll get apathy, at best it's open support for a bit of diversity and inclusion even if it's for its own sake. Those who cry and wail and go down the Mary Sue rabbit-hole don't make the majority

    But as always in our species: a noisy minority make things a bit shít for the majority.

    Post edited by pixelburp on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I don’t get the Mary sue thing, there’s far more male Mary sues then female ones.

    But there is equally an extreme element on the other side. The ones who try to shame anybody who doesn’t share their exact views on diversity.

    I’ve no issue with whatever diversity stuff that they throw into tv/movies once it’s done well or relatively neutral. When it’s done lazily and sticks out, it’s annoying , like sh*te dialogue or a poor set piece. I think some people can (or intentionally) confuse pointing this out with those who have issues with the inclusion of diverse stories/characters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,018 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    My only compaint about Captain Marvel in that regard was the use of 'Just a girl' by No Doubt. That was just nonsense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I just thought the movie was very vanilla , like pretty much most marvel stuff for sometime.

    My favourite bit of the movie was reminding me of the quality song from Garbage “Im only happy when it rains”. Class song.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,572 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    what you see as negativity , can be just seen as constructive advice. If they were criticising wildly financial successful and creative content you would have a point and it would just be sour grapes but broadly speaking the films in question ends up failing commercially and are forgetable

    Disney is on track to lose over a billion dollars on the films they have put out this year, there are going to be consequences, Disney cant just let that slide

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,018 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Oh the film was definitely lower tier, and has probably only ended up being considered mid-tier now given some of the fairly awful Phase 4 films. It also suffered a bit because it was the lead-in to Endgame and both CM and Ant-Man & The Wasp just felt a bit 'bleh' sandwiched between Infinity War & Endgame. But in terms of the whole diversity & inclusion debate, that song just stood out like a sore thumb



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Captain Marvel was a good idea, poorly implemented; not least in proposing an amnesia plotline at the start that got solved within the first 10 minutes of the film. And Larson just doesn't have the charisma, or range, to portray what I think this character was supposed to be. But then it was all so forgettable I'm struggling to even recall the thoughts I had at the time.

    And yeah, the use of "Just a girl" was so bloody stupid it could only have come from the minds of a corporation trying too hard.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    I was trying to think of more recent diversity stuff that came to mind, that was done well.

    I absolutely loved the last of us episode with the gay couple. I thought it was really well done and told a complete story in just over an hour. The end was heartbreaking. You could argue it was the least cliched episode of the entire series. It’s probably the most memorable episode of that series for me. I enjoyed the series but that episode is one that sticks with me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,905 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Tbf while cringe I can somewhat forgive "Just A Girl" as its a banging tune.


    Whatever eejit came up with the dire every female MCU character strike a pose and strut in the middle of Endgames "Avengers Assemble" battle needs shooting.

    That was awful and made no sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,189 ✭✭✭✭CastorTroy


    Didn't Ms. Marvel receive a lot of hate online as well or people just chose not to watch it for whatever reason? I know they changed her powers which I wasn't a fan of, but I still watched and enjoyed it. And Iman is just so likeable.

    So you've got people who were anti the show and those who were anti Captain Marvel. Likely both the same people. maybe they'll be the vocal minority but hope it does well.

    If they give Carol more of a personality. I liked Kamala and from what I've seen of Monica I like her as well. Maybe even make Carol the straight one to Monica and Kamala's more light-heartedness.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,347 Mod ✭✭✭✭TherapyBoy


    That scene was aching out for pot-bellied Thor to land in the middle of it swishing his hair.





  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    Blergh. I'd forgotten that as epic as that final showdown was, as great a culmination to the MCU it was, it was still muddy and ugly looking piece of shít to look at. All those colourful, extravagant costumes hidden by the Russo's hideous cinematography.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭kerplun k


    Or they just have an extreme hatred for French cheese.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭kerplun k


    Woes? Didn’t the last film make over a billion?

    I’ve no issue at all with an Academy award winning best actress being front and centre of this. Quite frankly the franchise is lucky to have her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,905 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    I never really get this line.

    When does box office equal any kind of quality?

    Or are Fast and Furious actual cinematic masterpieces?

    Similarly are Morbius and Suicide Squad epic because of Academy Award winner Jared Leto?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭kerplun k


    Fair enough, but as far as I know, Leto hasn’t been the lead in a billion dollar picture.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,905 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    No but Vin Diesel has.

    Does that mean Vin Diesel shoulda won the Oscar for 1.5 billion Furious 7?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭kerplun k


    I mean both, being the lead in a billion dollar picture and also an academy award for best actress. You don’t have those kind of achievements by being lucky.

    She’s a great actress and is very successful.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,018 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I definitely have no issue with Brie Larson as an actress. Even in Captain Marvel, the way she played the character was very stoic and unemotional... until she wasn't. When the need for emotion broke through, she was also able to convey that, and even in her interactions with Fury & young Monica she had a lot of charm. And the little snippets we've had of her in Endgame, post-credits of Shang-Chi and Ms.Marvel, I think we'll see how she's changed over the years and is a bit looser. Plus playing off Ms.Marvel will surely make her a bit more fun too as the film will be going for a slightly different vibe.

    I can't think of anything I've seen Larson in where I didn't at least like her performance. From 21 Jump Street to Room, she has a huge amount of range and capability.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,154 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    The main driver for the pushback is the issues with the movies coming behind. If everything else had gone to plan this would have been shoved out on the original calendar. They've also acknowledged that there were too many MCU movies coming out in quick succession so the others moving allowed this one to shift.

    Overall it should end up being lucky for it and the new Captain America movie. Both are going to be targeted for hate so they need to be as buttoned up as they can be



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,154 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    In Captain Marvel the issue was the character didn't fit into the cheerful quippy crop of heroes that were out at the time and it was made worse because the character was a woman, who certain people would never be comfortable with.

    Larson got the blame but she did as much as she could with what she was written. Agree that we'll hopefully see another side of her in this movie.

    Regarding Disney alienating certain members of the audience for a given movie in the MCU - they shouldnt care. If angry white guys are replaced by a more diverse audience for a movie, even if it isn't quite 1 to 1, then it is still a win to them. If they bring in a new audience to MCU for that movie then they're more likely to show up to a later one, when most, if not all, of the angry white guys are back from their boycott.

    Disney also isn't driven purely on box office numbers - if certain groups see themselves in movies they are far more likely to buy the other products tied to it. They've made an absolute fortune off Black Panther and Captain Marvel merchandise and I suspect Shang Chi's products sell much better than similar lower tier heroes



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭Ridley


    As an aside, I'm happy GotG 3 sticks the landing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,905 ✭✭✭✭pjohnson


    Ah yeah I didnt mean it as a critique of Larsons entire career.

    But just the whole trope argument of "X" won an Oscar so the movie they are in can't be bad is bizarre and lazy. 95% of actors will have some extremely questionable films on their CV that they don't want anyone to remember. Best Actor winners have won Razzies FFS.

    And speaking of Oscar winning/Razzie winner it wasn't the other trope of "angry white men" that made Halle Berry's Catwoman a giant heap of shìte, but that wasn't as popular an excuse back then and reviews/analysis were less lazy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,917 ✭✭✭nix




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Superman, Luke/Anakin Skywalker and Aragon come to mind. Depending on your definition of Mary sue, James T Kirk and James Bond and other superhero’s could fall into that category.

    Im not interested in getting into the meat of the definition because it’s a stupid phrase and the definition is irrelevant. All hero movies have their hero’s front and centre , the worlds revolve around them and our hero’s can’t lose. It’s the same whether male or female.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 36,711 CMod ✭✭✭✭pixelburp


    It is a phenomenally stupid phrase because yes every hero character, whose template is around the hero's predominance, is by definition a Mary Sue. Heck, James Bond must the Mary Sue Prime 'cos in the 50 years of the franchise you could count on one hand he ever "lost", while has he ever fúcked up?

    $836 million worldwide is also a very tidy sum; its success does however beg the question why Feige didn't just write Gunn a blank cheque to keep making MCU films. Though easy to forget for one brief second Disney had sacked Gunn..



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