"Green" policies are destroying this country

tom1ie · 05-07-2023 7:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120805724#Comment_120805724

Agree regarding the likes of ER and his crayon drawing regarding metro link just so he could try and garner a few votes from his constituents.

However ABP and the planning system in general is a massive problem that needs a specific minister/junior minister dedicated to streamlining the whole process.

Metrolink has a planning app that’s over a 1000 pages long as far as I know and we should be aiming to review and decide in a couple of months at most not a couple of years.

If this country is projected to have 10million people on it by 2050 we need to start building the infrastructure now not endless glossy brochures.

Before a certain poster claims the GP have improved transport- I’ll counter by saying they haven’t delivered any major pieces of infrastructure for PT in years.

marno21 · 05-07-2023 7:27am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806887#Comment_120806887

MetroLink planning app is 10,000 pages long. It’s little wonder it takes a while to digest it notwithstanding ABP issues.

deholleboom · 05-07-2023 7:48am

https://youtu.be/o7o59q8qMak

All the Green mad policies laid out and explained plus the current growing pushback..

tom1ie · 05-07-2023 8:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806893#Comment_120806893

10000 pages long or not it shouldn’t take as long as it’s taking to get to planning and then go through planning.

The whole process is far too long and the only ones who can do anything about that are government- if I understand it correctly the minister with responsibility is Darragh o Brien- although I stand to be corrected on that.

marno21 · 05-07-2023 8:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806950#Comment_120806950

Agreed but this is the world we live in.

prunudo · 05-07-2023 8:13am

Its not just government projects, I know of a commercial project that is before abp for 19 months and counting. And thats not including it being with the local authority for 8 months previous to that. And its still not a given the planning will go their way.

Thats no way to run a country, you could be looking at over 5 years from concept to completion just to expand a business. Its not sustainable and frankly a disgrace.

05-07-2023 8:30am

ABP was always going to fall behind once the SHD process came in and they were given zero additional resources.

Couple this with the fact that the only avenue to object to a SHD was a judicial review and the courts are severely understaffed too and its little wonder the whole system is in a heap.

Now the new planning legislation looks like, if it stays in its current format, it will be challenged in court with the EU already weighing in saying it will challenge it too on the basis that it seeks to limit access to justice.

The planning system needs an overhaul and it needs new legislation but the current draft is only going to lead to more delays through legal challenges and uncertainty

There's a separate thread on the topic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211322/planning-delays-to-infrastructure

Larbre34 · 05-07-2023 10:17am

It goes to show that ABP are an inappropriate body to approve major public infrastructure. They're too tied up with bike bunkers and flower beds.

Back in my early career, the Minister would appoint an Inspector to hear applications for road and railway orders, rather than ABP.

I think that now, there ought to be a Commission for Major Infrastructure, which sits to hear cases for large scale road, rail, water, energy and communications elements and also taxpayer invested projects like universities, stadiums, power stations and ports.

The public ought not have to wait decades to see the fruits of what their money is buying them.

I still think there is scope for a massive overview of process to deliver Metro North sooner. Realistically, because it has been done in other Countries, it could be operating by mid-2031, if the will was there.

marno21 · 05-07-2023 10:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806995#Comment_120806995

Yes, but there's a thin line between people having their say on projects in their area and people weaponising the planning system to obstruct projects and delay them into oblivion.

Take a roads project for example:

There are multiple public consultations before submission to An Bord Pleanala, at least 3 where they can raise their views

They can then have their say when the project is with An Bord Pleanala.

At this stage they've had their say at 3 decision points along the project development, and now they've had their chance to air their views to ABP, the arbiters of planning, once the final plan has been published.

Is this not sufficient for people to air their views?

Those who still feel entitled to obstruct the project can take a judicial review, and if that doesn't work can appeal to the Court of Appeal and then the Supreme Court, and possibly to Europe.

This whole lark takes 4/5 years and the rest of the people have to suffer.

The old canard about more resources will be wheeled out here but regardless of resources, if someone has 8 opportunities to challenge an element of a project it is going to take time regardless of how well resourced any organization is.

05-07-2023 11:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807515#Comment_120807515

Public consultations often don't result in any meaningful modifications. They've largely become a tick-the-box exercise, but thats a separate issue

It is not possible to force a deciding body to adhere to legislation during a consultation phase (though they should be doing this anyway) as the deciding body is not the one doing the consultation. There is often no indication at this stage of a non-adherence also as the full suite of application documentation is not published. Its only possible to fully review adherence when a full application is submitted, at least I've never seen the full suite of doc's released prior to an application being submitted but I'm open to correction.

Challenges (non-frivolous) are made based on points of law only, based on the granting of permission.

The fact that Sweetman, An Taisce, FIE etc are so successful in their legal challenges should tell you that these are not frivolous or obstructionist. Afaik none of them have ever issued a challenge that is not based on a point of law.

Take for example the recent challenge by FIE to a BnM windfarm in Ballivor. They made it very clear they are not against the windfarm, but that BnM have not done the required substitute consent/EIA's and should do these, hence the challenge. The legislation is clear that BnM have to do the work yet they will go to court for years to argue that they don't and this is despite the courts already having judged previously against BnM in another case that this work has to be done. Seems pretty clear to me in that instance that the issue is not with FIE.

Another example, the GCRR, ABP should have assessed it against the new Climate Action Plan for compliance, they didn't. In fairness to them, they held their hands up and admitted this mistake and didn't drag things out.

All that being said, frivolous cases should be struck out and costs awarded against the applicants every time. For the most part, this happens, though again, due to resourcing in the courts, it can take years to actually get through the required sittings.

As for the timelines, most of that comes down to resourcing. Taking ABP as an example again, they'll now be lumbered with all the offshore wind related applications also, as well as SHD's and all the regular county council appeals. Now the creation of the Planning Court will streamline things and put in place experts to rule on such matters, but this is also a long time over due, starting off under staffed and slow to get started so I'm doubtful we'll see any major impact from it but I'm hopeful nonetheless.

?Cee?view · 05-07-2023 11:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806920#Comment_120806920

Look forward to watching this later. Thanks.

marno21 · 05-07-2023 11:43am

Public consultations often don't result in any meaningful modifications. They've largely become a tick-the-box exercise, but thats a separate issue.

They have in my observations, but they're designed to be consultations, not for locals to run roughshod over the project, or for environmentalists to stick their oar in and derail projects based on their own wants and desires.

Challenges (non-frivolous) are made based on points of law only, based on the granting of permission.

The fact that Sweetman, An Taisce, FIE etc are so successful in their legal challenges should tell you that these are not frivolous or obstructionist. Afaik none of them have ever issued a challenge that is not based on a point of law.

You could also argue that environmental law is dynamic and complex and the cost of dotting every single i and crossing every single t can be the difference between a project being viable or not. And at the end of the day, some of these minor environmental issues are being used by residents associations as backdoors for legal challenges as has been seen with various projects around the country.

Another example, the GCRR, ABP should have assessed it against the new Climate Action Plan for compliance, they didn't. In fairness to them, they held their hands up and admitted this mistake and didn't drag things out.

The Climate Action plan forecasts us all driving zero emissions electric vehicles in future with zero emissions electricity from wind and solar and interconnectors being used to power said EVs. Based on that approval of the GCRR (Galway City Ring Road for those who don't have debates on it in the Roads forum) should be a formality.

As for the timelines, most of that comes down to resourcing. Taking ABP as an example again, they'll now be lumbered with all the offshore wind related applications also, as well as SHD's and all the regular county council appeals. Now the creation of the Planning Court will streamline things and put in place experts to rule on such matters, but this is also a long time over due, starting off under staffed and slow to get started so I'm doubtful we'll see any major impact from it but I'm hopeful nonetheless.

I was reviewing ABP cases there and I see the Connemara offshore windfarm has already started pre-application consultation with ABP which is fantastic to see. You are correct in that ABP needs a lot more resources but I do see the number of approvals is ticking up by the week. Thankfully the SHDs are winding down also which will reduce burden. I also hope ABP are being sufficiently thorough as to not be seeing these projects head for the High Court either.

05-07-2023 12:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120807849#Comment_120807849

And at the end of the day, some of these minor environmental issues are being used by residents associations as backdoors for legal challenges as has been seen with various projects around the country.

As I said, at the end of the day, if legislation is not being followed, and a challenge is based on exactly that then a challenge is not frivolous. If developers don't wat to be pulled up for not complying, then the simple solution is to, well, comply with the requirements.

You could also argue that environmental law is dynamic and complex and the cost of dotting every single i and crossing every single t can be the difference between a project being viable or not.

Just because there are regulations to be followed may make a project unviable does not negate the requirement to follow said regulations. Its like saying "sorry Garda, I didn't stick to the speed limit because I was in a hurry". Its a cop out and one which wouldn't stand up to scrutiny. Doesn't stop many developers from chancing their arm though

roosterman71 · 05-07-2023 12:49pm

Good use of slurry here to power a ship

https://www.irishexaminer.com/farming/arid-41176984.html

Be interesting if the shipping companies operating around here look at it. Though if I was them I wouldn't bother due to the current cull of the herd (both wanted and that which is already happening) which would reduce the supply.

Tenzor07 · 05-07-2023 12:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806081#Comment_120806081

Even the most uninformed person knows that the reason shops are losing trade isn't because someone finds it inconvenient to drive a motor vehicle into the city centre, it's because first of all a small medieval city centre isn't designed for large numbers of motor vehicles never mind providing parking for hundreds of vehicles. it just doesn't fit.. and secondly because Online sales has caused many old bricks and mortar stores to go out of business as they can't compete on price and convenience and stocks of goods people want in sufficient quantities, who wants to travel when you can sit at home at midnight to order your goods which will be delivered to your door? No one drives to pick up a fridge or a new couch etc, all ordered online from the retailers warehouse...

You don't own shares in a multi-story carpark in the city do you? :-D

City centres have to adapt, move away from the private motor vehicle, this isn't America, Europe has moved on, time Ireland does too..

roosterman71 · 05-07-2023 1:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808202#Comment_120808202

Your point is valid in many ways, but also falls down when you look at the many many retail parks outside on the outskirts of towns and cities to see that people do indeed still want to drive and park up. In Limerick, the Crescent is a prime example. It's a case of build it and they will come, make it harder and they won't.

opinionated3 · 05-07-2023 1:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808202#Comment_120808202

How come there was no problem shopping in Limerick city centre back in the 80s and 90s??

Tenzor07 · 05-07-2023 2:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808304#Comment_120808304

These are just copy and paste retail parks with the same stores selling the same goods, with all these multinational large retail chains getting massive tax breaks to set up shop, costs them very little to operate in these retail parks which are all owned by American investment funds sending their profits back across the Atlantic.. Not to mention that they're all usually providing only minimum wage jobs.

Government definitely needs to work harder to give the same benefits to Irish owned business providing goods/services made and provided for locally and paying above minimum wage good quality jobs and can afford rents in city centres... Rents in places like the Crescent shopping centre are a mere fraction of say Grafton st. in Dublin..

Tenzor07 · 05-07-2023 2:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808344#Comment_120808344

That's a different era, things have moved on... increased population, online ordering, car ownership now has multiplied to the point that many households have at least 2 cars...required by the lack of proper planning and the low density urban sprawl, very few can afford to live in/near city centres now..

Just look at this poll for example, many people travelled to the city centre to go to the cinema, now the majority never go... time moves on... city centres need to move on from private car visits to pick up a new armchair or fridge...

https://www.thejournal.ie/the-journal-poll-49-6110135-Jul2023/

roosterman71 · 05-07-2023 2:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808786#Comment_120808786

You are right, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are popular, and one of the reasons for that is the fact that you can drive and park. City centres don't allow that for the most part and as such, people aren't going there to shop bar they have PT or live nearby. BTW, most retail are minimum, or close to minimum wage jobs. Location of the shop has little or nothing to do with what they pay.

Pa ElGrande · 05-07-2023 2:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808344#Comment_120808344

Back in the 80s and 90s you would have had to go to Limerick city from its hinterland to get products that were not available or more expensive in the smaller towns. Most of the surrounding towns are built around a market square, the cattle trade left during the 1960s, they kept some momentum for a while, the 1980s depression finished a lot of the small retailers and people used the shopping centers in the main urban areas that bought footfall into the city center. As the Celtic tiger boom progressed, the retail units were built with easy access to the ring roads surrounding the cities.

No internet shopping and home delivery back then. Couriers such as DPD have been expanding in recent years, some of the couriers know their customers better than the postman. Post covid lockdown, I'm occasionally observing Dunnes and Tesco home deliveries to consumers in rural areas.
Tesco & Lidl are available in the outskirts of surrounding towns, no need for customers to travel to the city for weekly provisions, the outskirts of the local town will do. The towns are generally covering a radius of 10 to 15 KM.
Road network has changed, easy to get to the shopping center outlets on the ring roads than navigate to Limerick city center. The population has grown and so has the volume of traffic, going to city center is not a good use of time, if you have no reason to be there.
Dublin is about a 2 to 2.5 hour drive from Limerick city, Kildare village outlet stores can pull quite a lot of volume for clothes shopping. You don't even need a car, book a trip on Dublin coach. Speaking to some Dublin city center retails, they tell me in recent years volumes is typically going down 6% year on year to the internet and that was before covid lockdowns.
Concerts and GAA matches are perhaps one reason to go to the city center since the infrastructure is there for that.

Tenzor07 · 05-07-2023 3:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120809065#Comment_120809065

Great post, like in your last point, city centres are becoming a place to attend events, socialise, meet friends/pubs etc. Look at the success of pedestrianising various streets in Dublin city centre despite ferocious resistance from the likes of carpark owners and other vested interests..

Tenzor07 · 05-07-2023 3:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808987#Comment_120808987

Like I mentioned before, and the previous posters these retail parks take advantage of being located off Motorways and near the sprawling soul-less housing estates that are dotted all over the county's outside of the M50

Pa ElGrande · 05-07-2023 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806920#Comment_120806920

On that theme of push back here is a recent opinion from someone in the farming side: https://fb.watch/lyv3uYngSe/

US3 · 05-07-2023 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120808202#Comment_120808202

The crescent and Childers road are always packed. It's 100% a parking and convince problem with limerick city centre

tom1ie · 05-07-2023 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120806955#Comment_120806955

Yeah but we shouldn’t be accepting it.

If the government were serious about delivering infrastructure we’d have ABP working 3 eight hour shifts seven days a week to pump out decisions.

It would require hiring a large amount of suitably qualified and competent people to do this but the cost in wages would be minuscule compared to construction inflation.

?Cee?view · 05-07-2023 5:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120809149#Comment_120809149

Exactly, the commercial heart is being ripped out of Irish cities and city centres are just becoming some sort of playground. Now, you can drink coffee during the day and get pi**ed at night, and do little else. "Taking back the streets" and all that green crap is just a way to take the city for those who want it as their own personal space to swan around in, and to hell with businesses and families who've made a living there. Galway is being destroyed by these crowds; "community" groups and cyclistas, pushed and sponsored by Publicans who are laughing at them for doing their bidding, while they think they're saving the planet.