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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    See? Here I thought we were actually going to have a good (dare I say it, nearly friendly) discussion, but no. You had to go and misrepresent what I said. Honestly, boards would be better if you just asked for clarification instead of just putting words in people’s mouths.

    What I actually posted was:

    That “Absolutely not”. Is quite the important part of that sentence there.

    “I’m not against” which does not mean that I “support editing works of fiction, re-writing the context of how the authors wrote the books.”

    Honestly, where do you get off with that? How can I actually engage with you with such wilful misrepresentation?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You said you support so-called "millennial versions" of the original texts.

    For those versions, does it mean that the original texts will in some way be edited?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    The originals should be still there for anyone interested. I said so in the post.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,133 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    @[Deleted User]

    I read flaneur's post and it was clear from the start he didn't agree with editing books.

    You started with a good point but it descends into misrepresenting a poster's reply and then continuing in a series of posts, instead of saying, "ok you agree with me, lets discuss another point now", or even just passing by, no comment.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He agrees that two versions of the books should exist -- unedited originals and "millennial editions", which are edited.

    "He didn't agree with editing books" -- really?

    I’m not against “millennia editions” or whatever they want to call the edited versions, as long as the originals stay available.

    So no, there's no misrepresentation at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien




  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    The question everyone has to ask themselves is this -- is society better today because of the above list of changes over the past number of years, or is it made worse and more divisive?

    I suggest the latter. 

    And that constitutes a threat, a legitimate threat and one that remains ever present and ever more vocal.


    Obviously the people who have benefited from the changes brought about as a result of said changes will say yes, that society is better, whereas those people who have not benefited will say no, society has become worse and more divisive. Only to those who are not benefiting from social change, are social changes a threat. It still doesn’t constitute a threat to wider society, it’s only a legitimate threat to anyone who is so insecure in their own beliefs that they would seek to quash any kind of ideas which they have deemed are dangerous or harmful to society.


    Note: not "the left", but the far-left. Much of the modern left are equally as appalled by many of these things, as they are counter to what the left originally stood up for.


    They’re certainly not counter to what the Left originally stood up for, they’re pretty much a representation of the Left: anti-establishment, counter-cultural movements which emanate from their intellectual endeavours and attempt to manifest themselves in mainstream society and culture, only to be rejected by mainstream society and culture. That’s why they’re not any sort of a threat.

    Book-burning and ‘cancel culture’ btw has a long and colourful history, it’s not just a modern phenomenon manifesting in owners of intellectual properties (who have purchased the rights to the IP from the author) making changes to original works. Even reading the KJV translation of the Bible vs its original Hebrew (not to mention when the Greeks and the Romans got their hands on it) would tell you that much! 🤨

    It’s really not the big issue you’re trying to make it out to be that original works are updated to appeal to modern audiences. It’s certainly not a phenomenon that’s exclusive to Leftist political philosophy, and it’s been going on in Academia since Socrates… who himself wasn’t the biggest fan of democracy, ironically enough he was ‘cancelled’ on trumped up charges of corrupting the youth of Athens, and faced with the thought of exile from Athenian society, he figured dying for his cause was a better way to make his point 😳

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_Socrates


    Bloody upstart, like that hippy Jesus fella who copied him years later! 😒



  • Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    There have been edited versions of books for as long as I can remember.

    My younger brother had this kids version of Bram Stokers Dracula when he was six

    While it has the same core characters and the author"s name its a lot different to the original version.

    He also had similar versions of the likes of Treasure Island, The call of the wild etc.

    Saying this is a new dangerous phenomenon from the left, is very silly or disingenuous



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    Once again

    “Not against” does not equal “support”

    For example:

    I am “not against” Manchester United, but that does not mean I “support” them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,511 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Ambivalence is unacceptable in our highly polarized society.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien




  • Registered Users Posts: 19,232 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Texts have been edited for as long as the written word has existed. However, if one chooses to read an expurgated, sanitised or slightly altered version of words in a book, who the fuck cares as long as the original is still available for purists.

    At the moment I'm re-reading the original 'The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn', which has come under fire from all sides over the course of its publication history. Conservatives actually banned the book outright at one point and the NAACP have had numerous issues with it from the 50's. Currently it's available in its original form and a more palatable form for people who might be sensitive to the word "nigger", which is repeated again and again during the course of the story because of the time it was set in.

    If readers wish to read the book where "nigger" is replaced by "slave", then go for it.

    If items, however, are being permanently censored or banned outright, such as with the ridiculous video nasties scare led by the conservatives in Thacherite Britain, then that's a different matter altogether.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,511 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    And where does it end, like is it offensive to offer a toned down cover version of Harry Potter or should adult readers respect the authors original intent and read a colorfully decorated childrens book from business class?




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    However, if one chooses to read an expurgated, sanitised or slightly altered version of words in a book, who the **** cares as long as the original is still available for purists.

    You're missing the wider point.

    If it were just this isolated case, you'd perhaps have a point. But the assault on language very much has a broader front line.

    We're talking about how students must be isolated from "offensive speech" in universities; how prominent voices are cancelled because of the language they use; how the language around biological sex is being altered to the point where it borderlines a religious worldview; and how language is policed through the advocation of so-called "hate speech" laws. And it doesn't stop here. I could go on and on and on.

    Language is a tool of political control. All authoritarian regimes understand the importance of policing language, from Russia to China to elsewhere.

    In this case, it's the far-left who are attempting to police language. So when you zoom out to see the bigger picture, it's far more than just about making some books available to the public in unedited form.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    We’re not missing any of those points, because those points weren’t being discussed right now.

    I mean, if you want to move on from your original point since you misrepresented me and what I do or do not support, fine, but don’t pretend that’s what we’ve been talking about since you misrepresented me.

    we have been talking about books being not edited. Pretty much nothing else since 3:42pm when you posted:




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    One of the strategies I noticed that some on the far-left use is the following:

    • dismiss a specified concern as a kind of "why would anyone give a [insert expletive] about this matter?".

    We've already seen the strategy deployed. "Why would anyone give a [insert expletive] about books being re-written for more sensitive audiences today?".

    But it evades the broader point.

    We're seeing a general assault on language from the far-left -- about what can and cannot be said; about what is considered hate speech or not, through legislation; about what we are supposed to say about the trans question and biological reality (to give just a few examples) etc. People being called every -ism and -phobia under the sun just for expressing a casual and decent opinion. People on both the left and the right. Everyone can see that language is policed to a far greater extent than it was a decade ago.

    Most people can agree that we've taken a step backward.

    That's not a context we should just casually ignore.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,511 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    One of the strategies I've noticed that some on the far-left use is the following:

    Once again utterly sucking dry any meaning from the term "far-left" as if it is a function of political spectrum that anyone might express "who cares" to something.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Quite a lot more people care about certain matters than many people would like to pretend is not the case.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,511 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    None of this addresses what has been said on thread a few times now: the constant watering down of the term 'far-left,' burn down a police precinct, shoot up a school, and asking why someone should care about an issue, all lumped together as part and parcel. That there is an assault on language, I think you will agree.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You’ll casually ignore context when it suits your purposes; what makes you believe other people should be held to a different standard than the same standards which apply to everyone, including yourself?

    Your casual use of hyperbole for example in characterising anyone’s use of language which you have issues with as “an assault on language”, and then ascribing that to the far-left? That tiny minority which is represented in Academia? Utter nonsense to suggest it has gained any traction in mainstream society. It’s only the culture warriors who go scouring social media for the latest trivial news in a long list of “things we should all find offensive” by way of characterising them as threats to society. If you’re caught up in that world, then it’s reasonable to assume everyone else is seeing what you’re seeing, but in reality - they’re just not. People have greater concerns than some pinhead academic who they’ve never heard of before has had it pointed out to them that they’re a dickhead.

    Everyone can’t see that language is policed to a far greater extent than it was a decade ago, because you haven’t provided any context let alone evidence for that statement. That’s also why most people can’t agree that we’ve taken a step backward, because they don’t know ’from what?’ It’s not that anyones ignoring context, it’s that you haven’t really provided any other than vague references, grandiose statements, and broad generalisations based upon what appears to be nothing more than the first thing which enters your head at any given moment.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,232 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I'm not quite understanding your point of "where does it end", especially with respect to book covers. A particular item which changes all the time with each subsequent publication of a given work, and trust me I have several books on my shelf that are adorned with different covers.

    I think I've been quite clear in my post about the fact that if there's an abridged version of a work available for those who wish to pursue that, then I don't object to that version being existent. However, I am a firm believer that the original work should be available and not replaced and/or eliminated.

    Forgive me, however, if I'm picking you up wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,232 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I normally pass over everything you write because, frankly, it's worthless. But even just glancing at what you've written here has shown that you didn't even understand the point I made in the first place. You read several words and then climbed back onto your hobby horse.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,633 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It's all pathetically transparent. They're all for banning books and all anti-conservative speech but any time someone asks questions about prejudice from the past, that's when the line appears.

    If this is the threat from the left, the appraisal of the cultural output of past generations in today's diverse societies, I think there's nothing to worry about.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    It appear everybody is in broad agreement that by all means, edit books to your hearts content, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE ACCESS TO AND CAN STILL READ THE ORIGINAL.


    Look at us all, getting on like a house on fire.

    (Which it is!)

    What’s the next danger from the left you want to discuss @[Deleted User]?



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,511 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Pride month is over but the danger of pride shirts never fades apparently

    Hell of a chyron



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Right-wing - "Colleges are shutting down free speech by not allowing certain subjects to be taugh or discussed!"

    Also right-wing - "I don't think trans rights should be taugh or discussed in colleges!"

    Hmmm.....

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,511 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Recognising groups and individuals in society is absolutely fine. Nobody would be against that.

    But ideology should not be foisted upon students (or anyone, for that matter).

    That's the difference.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Education. *is* an ideology. Irish is an ideaology. Nationalism is an ideaology.

    NOT wanting trans books in libraries is an ideaology. Not wanting trans issues in classrooms is an ideaogy.

    Wanting something in education or banned from education are ideologies.. Just becuase you agree or disagree with something does not mean it is or is not an ideaology.

    You're point of view isn't wrong, but it is inconsistent.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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