Cyclists' responsibility for their own safety warning infractions given liberally for trolling etc

monument · 07-07-2023 10:42am

I locked this thread because I thought it had run the course of its usefulness without bickering etc. But now that it's been reopened, you guys can start acting like adults or I'll hand out more infractions (to both sides).

But if you also go on a reporting spree after you have acted like a child and been infracted for it, you will also risk further action.

People often complain when they are infracted "what about this guy", to be honest, I don't get paid for this and am busy enough, one way for for me not to take action if to report 8 comments in a row.

-- moderator

magicbastarder · 07-07-2023 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817236#Comment_120817236

if a cyclist ends up under the wheels of a car and has not done all they can to secure their own safety and visibility on the road, (lights, high-viz etc) then they share responsibility for their own fate.

you do realise that to many, that is a horrific attitude? if i get run over tomorrow in broad daylight because a motorist didn't even look in my direction (rendering lights and hi-vis utterly moot), you would argue that i share responsibility. that's morally bankrupt.

07-07-2023 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817271#Comment_120817271

@magicbastarder

I made the point very clearly, in my earlier posts which you have clearly chosen to ignore, that the last thing I want to see is anyone dead under the wheels of any vehicle. I also said that I am aware that wearing high viz will not prevent all accidents, but it could be the single factor that prevents one from happening.

I didn't and still don't understand the objections from cyclists to using it.

If you take exception to my "horrific attitude" as you call it, than so be it. It's not going to change.

I'm done with this.

07Lapierre · 07-07-2023 11:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817236#Comment_120817236

Just curious...what does "All they can" cover? Adhering to the speed limit? Not using your mobile phone? not driving under the influence of alcohol/drugs?, not listening to music? not driving while distracted by infotainment screens? Not driving if tired?

magicbastarder · 07-07-2023 11:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817326#Comment_120817326

do you stand over your comment that a cyclist who is run down, if they're not wearing hi-vis, automatically shares responsibility for their fate? if so, i stand over my comment that your view is morally bankrupt. if you didn't mean that, your wording was 'unfortunate'.

monument · 07-07-2023 11:35am

Everybody is being asked to read the charter before posting again.

You are not allowed to reply to moderation in the thread.

Re bias -- People on both sides of this thread have been given infractions and warnings from me. But when you go around calling people the "cycling lobby" when as far as I know there are no cycling lobbyists in Ireland, I think that speaks volumes.

-- moderator

Flinty997 · 07-07-2023 11:40am

...

Spook_ie · 07-07-2023 1:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817271#Comment_120817271

It may sound like a horrific attitude but at the end of the day it is the result that most sane people want to avoid and if people can't discuss it because it offends the sensibilities of some then I believe it's they that have a problem.

magicbastarder · 07-07-2023 2:11pm

there is a difference between 'wanting to avoid collisions' and 'wanting to blame cyclists regardless of fault' and i don't know why you're treating the second as if it's the first. it's not a difficult concept.

Spook_ie · 07-07-2023 2:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818287#Comment_120818287

Nobody has said blame cyclists regardless of fault except for some cyclists.

Indeed those same cyclists are likely the ones who would push for assumed liability against motorists rather than judging each case on its merits.

Thelonious Monk · 07-07-2023 2:31pm

Such a pointless discussion really, people are never going to agree. There's an underlying hatred of cyclists in Ireland and there's no point arguing with it.

There was a man hit in Ballymun in a hit and run earlier today and he's in critical condition. There isn't one comment on the Journal article on this and it was published hours ago. If a bike or scooter was involved it would have gone nuclear by now. Even when cyclists are killed half the comments are "well they had it coming because I saw one break a red light" type comments.

The chief cyclists haters on this thread are hardly going to change their minds on how they feel no matter how many times you point things out and respond to them.

Seth Brundle · 07-07-2023 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818344#Comment_120818344

erm, as an example, @[Deleted User] posted the following earlier today:

if a cyclist ends up under the wheels of a car and has not done all they can to secure their own safety and visibility on the road, (lights, high-viz etc) then they share responsibility for their own fate.

Also in terms of assumed liability, each case is still evaluated on its merits. It just so happens that the initial presumption is that the person driving was at fault.

Spook_ie · 07-07-2023 2:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120817327#Comment_120817327

So surely if you were replying truthfully to the quoted post it should read more like

"All they can" cover? Adhering to the speed limit? (Not applicable to cyclists should read cycling recklessly

Not using your mobile phone? (If its distracting for drivers then surely the same applies to cyclists, there was talk of the cycling Nirvana NL bringing in such a law

Not driving under the influence of alcohol/drugs? Same should be applied to cycists if drink/drugs affect your driving ability then surely they affect cyclists too?

not listening to music? Open to if that applies, probably more to do with the volume people have their ice or headphones set to.

not cycling while distracted by infotainment screens? Such as Strava or mapmyride etc.

Not cycling if tired? Is fatigue classed as tiredness, if you're fatigued perhaps you should parkup the bicycle and go for a rest rather than try to struggle up minor hills by meandering from side to side

Spook_ie · 07-07-2023 2:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818488#Comment_120818488

And they do share responsibility

100%-----------------------CAR------------------0%

100%------------------------CYCLIST----------0%

I very much doubt that many collisions are truly at 0% or 100% responsibilty of anyone, whether the use/non use of PPE or lights moves the sliding scale to would be very dependent on time of day and prevelant weather conditions.

As to HiViz PPE being recommended to wear, one thing that can be said for its use is that if road/weather conditons change you don't have to stop and don it (assuming a cyclist even registers their drop in visibility to other road users )

Unrealistic · 07-07-2023 3:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818643#Comment_120818643

When I was hit by a pizza delivery driver in his car one evening earlier this year, I was wearing a hi-vis jacket, hi-vis rain trousers, a hi-viz bag, and I had four white forward/side facing lights, 3 red rear/side facing lights, and 39 separate reflectors. I was riding in the centre of the outer lane of the roundabout, and not obscured by any other vehicles, yet he still managed to drive straight into me. I'll accept 0% of the responsibility for that collision, thank you. The Garda assigned to the incident, and even the driver himself, also agreed that he was 100% to blame.

And for the countless near misses, where only my own evasive actions have prevented a collision with a driver performing an illegal manoeuvrer, I'll also place the blame for the near collision 100% with the driver. Chiefly this involves drivers being too impatient to wait until after we pass a blind bend before overtaking me, or overtaking just as we arrive at a junction where I'm going straight and then cutting left across my path. It is endemic and completely reckless and happens to me personally multiple times each week.

magicbastarder · 07-07-2023 3:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818344#Comment_120818344

that's exactly what Loueze said, it should have been a hint that it was her as i was responding to her. Seth dug out the quote. maybe she's not good at expressing herself, but stated - without condition - that cyclists who don't wear hi vis share responsibility for their fate if they're knocked down.

07Lapierre · 07-07-2023 5:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818507#Comment_120818507

LOL...your a funny guy!

thank god this woman wasn't driving a bike...can you imagine the carnage?

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-66120958

07-07-2023 5:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818975#Comment_120818975

@magicbastarder

Maybe the issue is not with how I express myself, but with yours and others inability to be civil to anyone who disagrees with you. I believe the phrase used was "you deserve to be ridiculed".

I've stated my opinion, and if you don't like it, or think it's "morally bankrupt" then that's fine with me.

I'd appreciate if you and others would cease your attempts to drag me back into the thread. I've said I'm done with it.

Unfollowed.

Spook_ie · 07-07-2023 5:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819298#Comment_120819298

Well considering the thread is primarily about cyclists and taking some responsibility for their own safety I thought maybe you had missed the point, tragedy indeed but what does it involve about cyclists?

magicbastarder · 07-07-2023 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819379#Comment_120819379

i am not responsible if someone else used the word ridicule, i don't know why you're addressing that point at me. you claim lack of civility on the part iof others and then intimate i said things i did not say.

and if you don't wish to be 'dragged into a thread', there are two options open to you; you have the willpower to not respond, or else not post in the thread in the first place. if you post in the thread, you cannot demand that people not respond to your point or quote it.

Spook_ie · 07-07-2023 6:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120818465#Comment_120818465

Well the Journal is probably Irelands version of the Mail or Guardian the comments are pure purile comments for a lot of news items, so many wanna be comedians.

07-07-2023 6:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819379#Comment_120819379

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819466#Comment_120819466

There is a big difference between being "dragged into a thread" and "dragged BACK into a thread".

It's an awful shame when people don't make the effort to read what is said properly. But typical of this whole thread. Words and inferences being put in people's mouths that they never said. I used to give the benefit of the doubt, but at this stage, I believe it is deliberate.

And I'm supposedly the one who has problems expressing themself.

07Lapierre · 07-07-2023 9:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819389#Comment_120819389

With greater (horse) power, comes greater responsibility. Like it or not...its motorist who must bear the greater responsibility for road safety. Cyclists, pedestrians, e-scooter riders can and do act recklessly, but when they do, in most cases, they are a danger to themselves only. The driver of the landrover made a mistake...they weren't injured, but a number of kids were. in short, when driver make a mistake, people die, when cyclists make a mistake, people get hurt.

Spook_ie · 07-07-2023 11:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120820335#Comment_120820335

Well food for thought, perhaps next time you might lead with stuff like that rather than being so glib and trying to be funny

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120819298#Comment_120819298

So back to the topic, yes with greater (horse) power does come greater responsibility and hopefully not too many incidents of runaway vehicles ( however so caused ) but on a normal one on one scenario is it not justified to seek a reduction in collision statistics by making cyclists more visible.

The EU decided that DLRs would prove worthy of installing on all vehicles since 2011/12 and there were campaigns prior to then to get people to drive with dipped headlights on.

One assumes that there are studies available to show the research ( I'm doing this on the phone so search isn't too good ) that the EU based the decision on.

So if the research shows that there would be a reduction in collisions by using DLRs to enhance visibility then enhancing the visibility of cyclists would lead to a similar reduction.

Perhaps it's time the EU took the lead on this to overcome the resistance to change exhibited by cyclists and mandate that all new bicycles be fitted with DLRs and dynamos and in the absence there of, the wearing of EN approved HiViz.

apogee87 · 08-07-2023 9:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120813981#Comment_120813981

What would make clyclists safer? a bit of cop on. I was on a norrow road this week about 3 metres wide as if two cars meet they have to slow to a stop when the cars meet. We came up behing a group of cyclists 12/15 riding 2 abreast, one of the outside cyclists beckoned to the car to slow to cycling pace and they shuffled into single file which took about 30 seconds. I am surprised there are not more cyclists killed with this attitude. i was not driving but myself and the driver agreed that it would be impossible to pass the cyclists and be 1.5 metres away from them which is the law so on the basis of this this road is unsuitable for cyclists. Basically the road was built for bicycles 100 years ago and it was not upgraded. Maybe this is part of the problem.

magicbastarder · 08-07-2023 9:30am

is there any study showing the impact of DLRs on collision rates in the EU?

another bit of safety equipment which was supposedly introduced last year was automatic speed limit detection in cars; i think just over a year ago. but there's been weirdly little talk of it; did the EU abandon it quietly?

apogee87 · 08-07-2023 9:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821215#Comment_120821215

I expect this technology is in cars already but getting legislation for use of same would not wash in countries like Spain/Italy etc...

magicbastarder · 08-07-2023 10:01am

this says it came into force last year:

https://www.breakingnews.ie/world/new-eu-rules-on-car-speed-limiters-coming-into-force-1330327.html

and this says it comes into force next year:

https://www.engadget.com/eu-intelligent-speed-assistance-vehicles-anti-speeding-europe-000007992.html

apogee87 · 08-07-2023 10:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821274#Comment_120821274

Its in the cars but enforcement on this will not be happening anytime soon in my view.

Seth Brundle · 08-07-2023 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821202#Comment_120821202

You wouldn't expect to be able to overtake a tractor or car yet still think it is ok to be able to pass a dozen people cycling on a road that you say is only 3 metres wide? You seriously need to rethink your approach to passing vulnerable road users. (And you think the people travelling completely legally on bikes were the ones needing some cop on?)

Cyclists' responsibility for their own safety *warning* infractions given liberally for trolling etc

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Cyclists' responsibility for their own safety warning infractions given liberally for trolling etc