Why is teaching as a sector subject to these employment issues?

inbetweentea · 31-05-2023 2:32pm #1

This is probably debated here all the time.

But WHY in 2023:

Are jobs readvertised even though there is clearly a person in situ - who has been in the school/known to the school? Why do people in the school have to re-interview after one year? I don't accept the argument that the school might not want to keep the person in situ and this is fair. In other sectors, this simply doesn't happen. You get a job- yes your contract is precarious in other industries- but you get a job, after a probationary period (say six months) -you are made permanent and do not have to re-interview. End of. Why are teachers treated like we are just a provisional option and that our employers should have the right to get rid of us and advertise for better options? And why are new candidates treated so unfairly? Am I missing something?

I have been in too many situations where I've gone for jobs and found out afterwards there is someone 'in the job'. Yes, some will say- "but you always have the chance of getting the job"- but I don't understand why this whole process of readvertisement exists in the first place.

Why are teaching ads unclear- in this day and age? I go for a job- I don't know, from a lot of job advertisements, if this is a real job or a job covering someone, or the duration of the job. Yes, some say RPT but the nature of the job is often unclear until after you have interviewed! Why?

You cannot canvass, of course- but it seems you cannot ask too much about jobs either, prior to interview.

I am a frustrated teacher! I've been teaching years but interviewing again for various reasons and don't understand why these issues are still here.

History Queen · 31-05-2023 9:44pm

I'm nearly sure this is all part of the package that came in with the Ward report which reduced CID requirements from 4 years to 2. Someone more knowledgeable might clarify.

As regards whether a job is "real" or covering someone that should be clear in the advert, any I've seen advertin our ETB stipulate if they are fixed term/specifc purpose or if not, phone the school/ETB and ask how the vacancy has arisen.

inbetweentea · 31-05-2023 10:49pm

Ok thank you History Queen - I don't know much about the Ward Report but -of course- it's appreciated that the CID does not take four years.

Can you tell me - what does fixed term mean? Yes I worry that ringing is pushy but it is good to hear it is acceptable to do so

derb12 · 04-06-2023 1:48pm

Teachers have been called in for interviews for jobs that are already gone for a long time … way before the ward report. It stinks. I’ve been on both ends of it and it was awful. Sometimes you can tell from the ad when the job is an unlikely combo like PE and Chemistry (no offence to all the PE/chemistry teachers) but otherwise you’d only know if you had a connection with the school.

I suppose the industry standard of letting unsuitable candidates go after 6 months probation wouldn’t work with the academic year. But I think the fact that schools can squeeze all sorts of extras out of vulnerable teachers for two full years is an attractive reason to keep the status quo.

is it just teachers that have to re interview or is it all public servants?

gaiscioch · 04-06-2023 5:49pm

I agree it is completely unacceptable that so many people waste their time on jobs which are, in reality, already gone. It's not just in teaching - it's across the public sector. I went for a non-teaching job some time ago and the person who got it was the person who had it! It doesn't reflect well on the sectors of the public service which do this.

On the other hand, there are people who should not be given a CID because, well, they're not up to it. In short, if the school is happy with the candidate they should not have to advertise the job; if it is unhappy it should. Getting a CID after two years should not be automatic. Some people's "talents lie elsewhere", to put it kindly.

However, this is all academic these days as, due to the shortage of teachers, people who formerly would not have got a teaching job are now getting a job. Hard working, more focused teachers on the staff with basic classroom management skills take up the slack because these people are kept on. When the issue is brought to management's attention, you are told in confidence that "nobody else applied for the job" or, incredulously, "the other person who applied for the job came across as even less competent." it's not so long ago since hundreds of people would apply for a single job.

In this regard, I see very few new teachers who have a real grá for their subject. So many people just picked a subject because they wanted to get into teaching for the wrong reason/holidays. The old-school teachers who had passion for chemistry, maths, history or whatever and wanted to share it through teaching are thin on the ground in 2023. When you're surrounded by passionate teachers it is infectious on the whole staff, and when they are replaced by box-ticking, buzzword-loving fonctionnaires as "teachers" the scholarly culture declines. This is what happens when the centrality of knowledge to a school system gets downgraded by things like Junior Cycle "reform".

inbetweentea · 06-06-2023 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676325#Comment_120676325

Good point Derb about how it might not work to do a six month probationary contract in view of the school year- I had not considered that. Young and non-permanent teachers are vulnerable. Well said

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120677107#Comment_120677107

I agree with a lot of what you say here, Gaiscioch - if the school is happy perhaps they should not have to advertise but if they have doubts and somebody is not able to teach, they could have the option. I can't really comment on the quality of new teachers to agree or disagree on this other point about buzzword-loving robots - I'm not in management so don't see CVs or know about what goes on in other classsrooms- but I have worked with some very committed teachers- both less experienced and experienced. Absolutely- passion for the subject is paramount.

rainbowtrout · 08-06-2023 12:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120676325#Comment_120676325

I know it's not the main thrust of what you are saying, but PE/Chemistry is not an uncommon combination, UL have been offering that degree for more than 30 years, and several other colleges offer PE + Science degrees. PE with Geography/English/Maths is far more common but PE/Science is not necessarily a job that's already gone.

derb12 · 08-06-2023 7:46pm

I knew as I was typing it that someone was going to correct me 😂

rainbowtrout · 18-06-2023 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120691991#Comment_120691991

Now if you had said Home Economics and Metalwork...... 🤣

mtoutlemonde · 18-06-2023 10:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120731561#Comment_120731561

When I was job hunting years ago, there was a job for my subject and in the additional information it stated 'ability to teach Enginerring and DCG a requirement'

iniscealtra · 19-06-2023 9:00am

Fixed term means the job is for maybe níne months or a fixed amount of time. A teacher is out on leave and still has the CID for those hours. They are expected to come back after the fixed term advertised.

CraftySue · 19-06-2023 8:33pm

My understanding and open to correction:

RPT- regular part-time; these are usually your own hours, but may not be full hours for example 18hrs, 15hrs etc. Paid for the year, and after 2 years you can apply for CID in those hours.

Fixed term- usually your own hours, and usually full hours -22 hours. After 2 fixed-term contracts, you can apply for a CID.

I have noticed in advertisements ETB tends to use the term 22 RPT more, and voluntary schools Fixed term.

Specific purpose/ Fixed purpose- are usually not your own hours, these contracts are usually where you are filling in for someone, for example, maternity leave, and are for a set amount of time like 9 months.

rainbowtrout · 20-06-2023 11:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120732084#Comment_120732084

Hmmmmm... yep that one screams dodgy. I remember seeing one 20 odd years back when I was on the job hunt myself for Art and Accounting.

Rosita · 08-07-2023 8:34am

This reminds me of some years ago I was doing an interview in a school and got talking about interviews to another girl who was waiting. She told me she was doing an interview in another school about an hour later.

I was just after getting a text from a friend who worked on that school excitedly telling me that one of colleagues had been "made permanent" and was getting congratulatory texts. It was the teacher who was already doing the advertised job and they still interviewed people despite not only knowing who was getting the job but actually having formally offered it. Nauseating.

doc22 · 08-07-2023 9:32am

Teaching panels should be set up centrally like the civil service with external HR on panels. In reality you can’t compete with the who you know factor which plays a part at a local level(whether already in school or not). Teaching positions are relatively well paid publicly funded positions and the recruitment process should reflect the fairness required for such positions(not just advertising a post and then making up interview scores at a local level to suit themselves).

Those who don’t get jobs can rightfully feel aggrieved when they join the dots.

bureau2009 · 08-07-2023 9:40am

In ETBs the job advertisement/interview is often merely a procedure ticking exercise to regularize the position of the teacher already doing the job.

Treppen · 10-07-2023 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821220#Comment_120821220

Given the heavy emphasis on ethos in Irish schools there's zero possibility there will ever be a centralised application system. Unless they nationalise all schools LOL.

ethical · 17-07-2023 12:49pm

You have it in one!

The ETBs are great for 'box ticking'!

There is nothing wrong with box ticking if the work is done ....but unfortunately,as far as many ETBs are concerned,the work is not done.

Another thing to look out for is jobs advertised with a line in italics at the end saying: equal opportunity applies' and /or : canvassing will disqualify

Many ETBs have 'panels' of interviewers,usually 'old cronies',retired Golden Circle 'comrades' and it is very,very important to have money for these people on a very regular basis(even though they are generally on full pensions!).Some of the 'panel' do not mind travelling the length and breadth of the country to 'collect' funds eventhough the posts they are interviewing for are generally already filled. The secondary school sector,on the other hand, will fund their 'panel' with 'One for All' vouchers. Its a nice little industry!!! But then you see the 'them' and 'us' scenario at our State broadcaster which has opened a sewer of sh1t....and feck the rest of us!!

Why is teaching as a sector subject to these employment issues?

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