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EU Biodiversity strategy 2030

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    They can't carry on with it as it is. It's been rejected now by the Ag committee, the fisheries committee and now the environment committee. I reckon there'll be serious pressure put on members from the "green" and environmental NGOs to get it passed even though it's been rejected 3 times by different groupings. I'd expect a huge backlash then of parliament overriding the previous committees recommendations. And how in reality could a parliament approve an environmental law that the environmental committee rejected? This law is either dead, or going back to square one.

    Nevertheless, this isn't over. There'll be lots more money pumped in and lobbying galore to get something new in it's place



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    The law was always going to have to be passed by a full vote of the EU Parliament. Actually it was an idiotic move by Weber and his pals to Gerrymander the vote on the Envi Commitee by replacing 7 of his own EPP group with hardliners to oppose even any amendments to the law. Simply means the original proposal will get voted on by the entire EU parliament, including many within Webers own party who don't share his views on the law or appreciate his bullying tactics on this that were quiet unprecedented and have not gone unnoticed by other MEPs, nor his campaign of aggressive misinformation on many of the proposals eg. blocking reasonable measures on water quality, sustaineable forestry and urban greening etc. The Vote on July the 12th will indeed be interesting....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 710 ✭✭✭eire23


    I hope to God it gets rejected on the 12th. Was listening to Some green party member being interviewed on radio one there a while, fantasists of the highest order.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    The GP(especially Ryans version) are kinda of an irrelevance to the bigger issues in this proposal(and similar) and what follows out of it in terms of the shape of the next CAP. Those in Irish farming wanting to get into bed with EPP extremists on this and similar should be very wary of how the next CAP will be shaped in terms of funding for farming in more marginal areas, as Webers ideologues will be fighting tooth and nail to grab as much of the shrinking CAP pot for big agri business while smaller farmers in already financially vulnerable sectors like Hill Sheep etc. will simply be viewed as collateral damage in terms of seeing their supports melting away to maintain the fat payments of the big boys behind the likes of Copa Cogeca etc. As underlined by my earlier point on this thread concerning the EPP voting against giving farmers a steady income in return for restoring overgrazed mountain land, removing invasive Rhodendron etc. that is already impacting farms around my place in North Mayo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭cal naughton


    Padraic Fogarty from the Irish wildlife trust was just on Prime Time . I thought his head was going to explode his was raging!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,949 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    He's a very disingenuous fella. He visited a small scale sheep farm last year that would be all about fauna and dung beetles and doing everything in their power to maximise wildlife.

    Next week he was tweeting of the destructive power of regen livestock farms.

    I get the impression he only has the paw and gob open to get on boards and money.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Jesus christ thats pretty bad now, how could anything revolving around regenerative agriculture be destructive to the environment, soils and water courses.

    Sounds like someone with a serious agenda



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Joke altogether, watch what they do not what they say comes to mind.

    Alot of people from my area have been onto Marian, and honestly all that was needed was this written stipulation, without this it's bollox it can still be forced upon us. Shows what the government think, this was not a big ask it's just holds the government's words to account something Ireland/democracy doesn't uphold anymore.

    All the while the new Teagasc research that shows that the so called emmisions from this peat soils is overestimated by 60%.

    This land has the cleanest rivers according to the nitrates and phosphates maps, anyway most people up my way are done with this crap, I hope a group of rural TDs come together and form a party that speaks for us I really do.

    It's not as if we are against bio diversity, the western seaboard on this land type are 100% the most extensive and best for nature. Leads me to believe that this rewetting is more about co2 emmisions than bio diversity. Yet the new research shows this is basically a lie, this land is not near as ad as the so called experts said.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'll be tipping along to the meeting on Sunday if I can get time off for good behaviour.

    Fairly annoyed with the blizzard of dictations that is falling on us.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    I might have to get you fill me in, sadly I'm caught Sunday and won't be able to go. By the sounds of things they have legal representation there to talk through the legality of all of this. Have to really hand it too them they are the only people who give a **** about anyone farming on peat soil and our legitimate concerns.

    I have been onto Marian to see what her thoughts are in relation to the verbal agreement of voluntary rewetting - my take is that unless its in a written stipulation then its just more worthless sound bites, just waiting for her to come back to me.

    Must say, these people really are the last true public representatives left.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Absolutely, word or gentleman's agreement isn't worth a thing. All it is is soft talk.

    I don't know McNamara but have met Marian Harkin and had communications with Michael Fitzmaurice and they're very decent people, proper representatives.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    An interesting article, 2030 is too far away for GWP* to be introduced, needs to be pushed hard now.

    Hitler and Sri Lanka could have been left out to be honest.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I don't think I've yet been at a farmers meeting that started on time 😄



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    @Reggie. there's a lad here selling stakes, should I take a punt 😏



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,527 ✭✭✭✭Reggie.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    What was people thoughts of the meeting today, any new information, takeaways from the legal expert that are worth noting



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So here’s some random stuff I wrote down. I’m a terrible note takers so I’m not going to stand over this in court, or my grammar and speeling pisstakes, if others differ, off with them.

    A lot of speakers called for what is most important to myself, retention of control of my own land and destiny in favour of compensation.

    Michael Fitzmaurice talked about the vote in the dail during the week where only 11 TD’s voted in favour of legislation making NRL effects voluntary – The minister keeps saying this but we know past verbal agreements around the habitats directive did not hold. Legal text is needed to protect farmers. An adverse effect of NRL could be if EU/State monies are drawn down on an enterprise, and someone decides that enterprise is harming the aims of the NRL, the monies can be withdrawn.

    Michael McNamara spoke of favouring collaborative work but instead we are put into a battle. That we must have legal guarantees that any NRL action or measure is voluntary, again something our minister has said in words but refuses to put into law. He said it was profoundly wrong, after decades of telling farmers to drain and pull out scrub that all of that now must be reversed without financial aid. He doesn’t believe that society will pay for NRL, even though they will benefit from it, unless it’s voluntary on farmers part.

    James Staines solicitor said rewetting is only a very small part of the NRL. That the NRL is coming in as a regulation and not a directive. The effect of this method is that it can be introduced much, much faster. A citizen or eNGO can sue the state if the NRL isn’t being implemented. The EU Commissions version of the NRL is the one up before a vote next week. The Council of Ministers version is better (I use the word loosely), the Parliament couldn’t agree on a version of their own. He sees no evidence of non CAP funding. Natura 2000 birds and habitats directives become much stronger with the introduction of the NRL. He doesn’t believe the appropriate research into a national NRL plan will or can be done. Rather that it’ll be a messy, crude big red line job based on “European” research like with SAC and not done with accuracy. Property rights in Ireland are not absolute. The State can interfere – planning was given as an example – with no automatic right to compensation. Land can be made worthless through designations, planning will be complicated on non designated land which is adjacent to designated land (or sea – ask me how I know). Experience of previous designations indicate huge problems for farmers with no compensation.

    Ciaran Dolan, barrister, the NRL is NOT VOLUNTARY, it IS COMPULSORY, MANDATORY. The EU Commission is specifically introducing it as a regulation and not a directive. Our Oireachteas  will have zero oversight over the NRL – I note Marian Harkin TD was strongly agreeing with that fact. If the EU Parliament votes for this NRL, the Commission can implement secondary regulations with no oversight from the Dail. Basically EU law overrides our own. There is no compensation for things like public health, but his opinion was there must be compensation for restoration. He gave an example of putting  the weight of making a building special needs accessible solely on the owner  was unconstitutional, that regarding the NRL the Govt & Oireachteas must have regard for the long term burden being placed on us landowners in regards to Just Transition. A very detailed account of habitats must be drawn up in a short time. Will there be a funded appeals process? He believed the SAC appeal regime had worked well previously. Planted peat land may not be allowed to be replanted, leading to a land value of zero.

    Colm Markey MEP

    NRL needs to be voluntary, as mandatory is difficult to fund from legal perspective, although it can get some degree of compensation. It can’t affect your neighbour. It must be incentivised, dedicated fund outside of CAP, private funding. There needs to be a definition of “restoration”. Funding sources are very vague.

    Various comments from the alphabet soup of farm orgs

    Most if not all wanted compo from outside CAP.

    Most wanted voluntary nature to be solid in law, not soft talk from a minster who won’t be there in X years/decades time.

    In the past, monies for these lands had disappeared at the first sign of recession, ie REPS.

    Banks don’t want to know about designated land.

    Incentive led scheme would be better than a feared law for results.

    A farmer could be made reinstate a marsh or grove of trees (just examples) that may have been present in the past.

    Past poor treatment of SAC/SPA farmers.

    Teagasc research on lesser amount of drained peatland was referenced.

    Article 4 a particular problem as wet and dry heathland to be restored

    Article 11 restoration to times at least 70 years and longer ago, those lands may not exist in anything like that state today.

    Cattle & sheep and their subsidies may be removed from hills, leading to massive fuel build up and knock on massive wildfires.

    Article 12 Subsidies that have the effect of interfering with NRL may be withdrawn.

    Low value designated land being bought up by NPWS for €3-400 an acre.

    Land, which it’s only income generating possibility is from state grants with no commercial activity = worthless.

    Income is not the sole issue, but diversification options, planning will be gone.

    A historical note on designated lands, REPS paied €242/ac, then AEOS paid €150/ac, then GLAS €79/ac, and ACRES now €0/ac. Despite all the talk it’s clear the EU/Govt do not value designated land.

    No employed person in society does work for free, save voluntary groups, why should farmers tolerate any different?

    Mention of Ireland saving the world, versus carbon emitter like China or rain forest destruction in Brazil. Latvian peat, Brazilian woodchip all got honourable mention. Is climate change ONLY happening in Ireland/EU?

    Farmers being driven off land through reduced payments.

    Birdwatch Ireland attempted to highlight opportunities for farmers. That agri environmental schemes were very popular. That they need to be funded more. Apparently you cannot rear a family on 50 dairy cows. Raising the water table should be looked forward to as a drought mitigation action, that it is not land saturation. That there are no land designations within the NRL. Made remarks on the now defunct Burren Life. That nothing will be burdened on farmers, the legal burdens are only on the state (I have a pre loved dam in Ukraine to sell you if you believe that). Michael Fitzmaurice interjected that EIP’s were voluntary and that was the whole point.

    To be fair NPWS did send someone on their day off, but I had stopped caring by then. Sorry.

    There was some people there that shouldn’t be let out without adult supervision. The risk that is public meetings. I thought the moderation was poor. 



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A couple of things I may have left out.

    I'm left with no sense of what's next beyond the vote on the 12th.

    There was only one out of thirteen MEP's there, ponder that and the vote in the dail when arguing over politics next.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Thanks for that Herd, fair play to you for going. Depressing stuff so all the same, basically back to f'ing Square one.

    Anyone logically thinking can see that if land value is based solely on 1 person or entity ie. a grant from the EU then that is not a free market and is therefore worthless. But hey we can grow blueberries on this peat soil.

    I suppose main thing needed first is to have it written in stone that it will be voluntary otherwise anyone on this type of land is in a very very precarious position.

    All we can do is try and get this issue highlighted with all the farming organisations and rural TDs to push for this. Hope is all we have by the sounds of things



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think I also left out Marian Harkins summation, oopsy.

    TD's or CoCllrs have no power in this. The blame/power is with ministers and MEP's alone.

    If this law is passed, it's irreversible and will ensure very long term commitments.

    Again, the dail voted against a (something) to make NRL voluntary and ensure financial commitment.

    The Govt added an amendment of only 90 words....

    Without legal commitment any payment can dwindle to zero, as before.

    In all her years in Euro Parl she had never seen a law rejected or fail to reach any agreement so many times, it's obviously flawed and parliament should reject it.

    Many EU nations don't want this, off the top of my head the list included Italy, Netherlands, Denmark, Finland and more.

    If it's passed on the 12th, it goes to trilogue and whatever they hammer out becomes law.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭Siamsa Sessions


    I'm guessing this thread on Twitter relates to the meeting with Michael Fitzmaurice: https://twitter.com/NadalineW/status/1678267521261096960?s=20

    Seems one prominent enviro told farmers that rewetting and designations is a "wonderful opportunity".

    Trading as Sullivan’s Farm on YouTube



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Just came on to post that thread, she did yeah. To be fair there was one particular offensive, mannerless individual who was threatened with ejection but carried on shouting here and there after. Michael Fitzmaurice interjected several times demanding respect for speakers and also profusely thanked speakers of the environmental lobby.

    Tldr; the heckler was a dickhead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,949 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Would you think the heckler was a genuine dickhead or an enviro plant?

    Both could also be true.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Something else I noticed, Claire Kerranes office is a stones throw from the Shearwater Hotel, didn't see her there. She's SF Ag spokesperson.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Huge Voting session today on the NRL. I see a lot of cowardly MEP in Ireland coming out on twitter pandering to the eNGOs saying how great this law is and backing it. When you look at all the amendments that they want in order to vote yes, this NRL will be watered down to being effectively worthless. Such ball less MEPs that are so afraid of cancel culture and being called a 'climate denier' for voicing their legitimate concerns. Society is on a bad bad road going to an even worse destination when ordinary peoples legitimate concerns are weaponized, dismissed, politically characterized and forced into silence if it is not written by the Mainstream Playbook.

    Time will tell, I think voting will be tight especially if the green hardliners reject these amendments. Basically my thinking is the Law will pass if the hard chaw environmental are willing to accept it being watered down to pretty much useless - if they dig their heels in it will fail miserably. Personally I think it will be the first option, as it saves face and shows that the EU is altogether in fighting climate change and the bio diversity loss - these narcissists love being able to clap themselves on the back.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    De paper has it failing by 20, otoh I have a bad feeling it'll pass.

    https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-41181466.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 710 ✭✭✭eire23


    @[Deleted User] and @Jonnyc135 thanks for keeping this thread going and keeping us updated. I'd have liked to get as far as ballinasloe last Sunday but couldn't make it.

    What's the implications of this watered down version passing? If it passes is that it..it's going into law and no going back?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Honestly wont know until all the amendments are voted on and put together as a whole, but just looking at Sean Kellys proposed amendments on twitter, he is really as well off just voting NO, because his amendments basically kill the Law anyway - All the usual eNGO suspects out beating him because of these amendments which tells me if he had the balls to stand up to them and just vote NO he would have got the same flake off them anyway - and these amendments will be pretty much the same for all the other Irish EPP MEPS voting 'yes'.

    Watered down version would be rewetting of peatland probably lowered from the council position (council position - state land has enough to cover it)

    Still this doesn't really matter as we need it in writing off the Government stating this if the law is passed - we must have a hardline approach to this, we will not be made idiots out of again by believing 'verbal' agreements. We must also fight that any environmental measures imposed from this law (if passed) are index linked to inflation - as taking productive land out of production across the EU will definitely lead to inflation over a sustained period of time - ECBs target of inflation is 2% per year, after 10 years a payments would be worth 20% less.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    If it passes it will become law and supersede any national legislation. Non compliance will lead to multitude of eNGOs bringing cases to courts all over the place, of which their costs are covered by the state as the cases will come under climate/environment concerns



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    I think it will End up in scenario 2, according to this Lady - That means back to the Envi Comitte as no consensus from Plenary on ammendments, then the EPP can keep blocking it. I don't think anything is a straight yes no for this contentious law



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Vote Rejected - Nature restoration law passes. Onto amendments now, this is where I believe things will be extremely tricky and I doubt they will get consensus unless it is extremely watered down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Is this guy for real, he is on the Mat Cooper show every Thursday bashing farmers and telling us how were doing it all wrong.

    Hypocrisy at its finest



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Do we know who voted what way yet?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Don't mind that individual, he's a waste of time, a fundamentalist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    EU parliament has adopted the NRL after the amendment votes. Looks like it's in. Negotiations to begin now on the detail



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,821 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Apparently all Irish MEPs voted to pass this law. FG, who are part of the EPP and were instructed to block it went against that instruction.

    “All Irish MEPs voted in favour of the Nature Restoration Law and this is the direct result of having Greens in government and in the European Parliament.




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Thanks, I guess my EU voting strategy will be the same as my national voting strategy going forward, A.N.Other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Honestly, if a rural party was formed by some of the rural independents it would be the 4th largest party behind Sinn Fein, FG, FF. I honestly hope one is formed - our voices are being heard but not being listened too and we are been alienated by been given a politically charged labelled eg. Climate Denier, Far Right etc.

    Netherlands government has now collapsed and the largest party their is the newly formed farmers party which is likely to takeover. Politics works fast when people are beaten down and not represented by the main stream establishment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭endainoz


    I'd see a rural party having the opposite affect. Would likely split the SF vote and FFG would just get to consolidate their own power.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    SF don't support farmers either.

    At least if we had our own representatives we might have some voice. Only 11 TD's in Dail Eireann supported the reasonable Fitzmaurice/Harkin/McNamara motion last week asking measures be voluntary and funded and that we have some modicum of rights to our own land, and no Irish MEP voted against the NRL.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Completely disagree, most farmers do not support Sinn Fein and certainly Sinn Fein do not support farmers. A lot of farmers feel alienated by the greens and are not happy with the way both FF and FG (their main parties) are facilitating this. If anything these people, hardened FF and FG voters for generations will change. When it boils down to rural life, livelihoods and private ownership rights these people will not stay loyal to FF or FG.

    People are tied to their land through generations of handing down, its their place, their history, their land. This rewetting law threatens every bit of that - the whole identity of a family farm. Trust me nobody will stay loyal to a cause that may threaten or undermine that - this I guarantee you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,862 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    Can't understand how it's been talked as non-consequential if a BBB type Irish party was set up here, when you see the seats they won in the senate election and given only 2% of the Dutch population is employed in agriculture versus 7.1% in Ireland, look at the tds if you'd call them that SF got elected in the last election it was a turkey shoot for them as they won all the protest vote, a bit of joined up thinking here and organisation would go along way here in getting a Good few tds in such a scenario to simply counteract the green/social democrats



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,041 ✭✭✭Jonnyc135


    Worth noting - One major amendment put forward is a complete deletion of Article 9 - restoration of agricultural ecosystems including the restoration targets for drained peatland. Basically, I highly doubt it will be deleted but there is a high probability that the rewetting targets will be watered down substantially from the council proposal.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭endainoz


    I see what you did there. So is this going to be the opening of the door to far more extreme policies even if it's a watered down bill from what was proposed.



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