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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    More dangers coming from the left (/adopts gript voice)

    They want to kill God as we know him!

    /Gript voice

    It’s interesting to see the CoE taking a lead on the patriarchal nature of the church.

    Obviously, I agree. If you believe in a monotheistic God, why would he be male or referred to as he? They should be referred as “they” as they are not male or female.

    As to what to replace “father” with, I assume it’ll be something akin to creator.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Nobody is suggesting you made the statement...

    I'm not enitrely sure that's true of the poster I was replying to.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I'm kind of of the impression that the pronouns and uses of father and pronouns weren't specific in that case - kind of like "man" or "mankind" refering to humanity generally and not just the male portion of it. Could be wrong. What Chrsitians do in their own home is up to them, as long as they don't raise bigots - same as every other religion or athiest parentage.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    The Archbishop’s hot take isn’t new, but the reason God is referred to in Christianity using the masculine pronoun He, is because he is The Father. He is not referred to as The Mother anywhere in Christianity and it would make no sense from the point of view of the scriptures to use the feminine pronoun in reference to God. It could only make sense if one were attempting to portray the Anglican Church as a progressive organisation in order to appeal to a modern audience. That seems to be what’s happening in this case where the Archbishop suggests the word ‘father’ is problematic -

    “I know the word ‘father’ is problematic for those whose experience of earthly fathers has been destructive and abusive, and for all of us who have laboured rather too much from an oppressively patriarchal grip on life,” he said.

    The issue there is the earthly fathers behaviour, nothing whatsoever to do with the idea of God The Father, and only a complete numpty (or an Archbishop with issues of his own) could make that association.

    He is also referred to as The Creator already.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    It’s pretty new for an archbishop to have this “hot take” though, isn’t it?

    I can’t see their churches in Africa going for it if they’re instructed to change the words to “Our creator” in that prayer. I believe they already had issues with CofE teaching regarding homosexuality. Might be the next big break in Christianity



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    It’s pretty new for an archbishop to have this “hot take” though, isn’t it?


    Nope, it’s not at all new. The Archbishop’s take on it though, is absurd.


    I can’t see their churches in Africa going for it if they’re instructed to change the words to “Our creator” in that prayer. I believe they already had issues with CofE teaching regarding homosexuality. Might be the next big break in Christianity


    I don’t see why Anglican Churches in Africa specifically would have any issue referring to God as The Creator. Undoubtedly though, they would have an issue with referring to God using the feminine pronoun, and not just in Africa, but anywhere the Anglican Church exists really - some branches of the Anglican Church are of the ‘if we must then’ variety, others still reject the idea of homosexuality outright:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_Anglican_Communion

    There have always been liberal and conservative factions within Christianity though, with liberals hoping each time that this would be their big break.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    I don’t believe anyone is saying that God should be referred to using the feminine pronoun, but I believe it would be by the singular pronoun, “they” instead, which makes sense to me (as an agnostic, former Catholic)



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    And ‘they’ is fine in that context where one is referring to God in the third person, it’s a linguistic construct of the English language; in scriptural terms though it would make no sense, regardless of whether one is Catholic or not, it wouldn’t have any bearing on Catholic theology -

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) #239 states, in reference to the Father: "God transcends the human distinction between the sexes. He is neither man nor woman: He is God." The CCC discusses the traditional imagery and language of God as Father. It notes, however, that God is not limited to this role alone—maternal imagery are also used in the Bible. It also notes that human fatherhood only imperfectly reflects God's archetypal fatherhood. God is referred to as masculine in Catholic teaching and practice.

    Though Church teaching, in line with its Doctors, holds that God has no literal sex because God possesses no body (a prerequisite of sex), classical and scriptural understanding states that God should be referred to (in most contexts) as masculine by analogy. It justifies this by pointing to God's relationship with the world as begetter of the world and revelation.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_of_God_in_Christianity


    Saying that though, I’m not going to get het up about whatever way individuals refer to God, I’ll still understand what they mean, which is more important than getting my knickers in a twist about either their preferred pronouns for themselves or how they refer to others.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Violence being glorified against so-called "TERFs" at gatherings; "TERFs" being women who seek to defend their rights and protections.

    And this isn't an isolated incident either.




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Waving an Antifa flag.

    I've noticed a growing number of voices online who are Gay, Lesbian etc who are increasingly distancing themselves from this type of insanity and you really can't blame them.

    The whole notion of LGBTQIA+ as an accurate representation of all the people who fall under it's umbrella is a nonsense.

    It must be torture for normal gay or whatever orientation, people to have to endure association with this type of lunacy.

    The person in that video should be prosecuted for incitement of violence and made an example of, we all know that's an unlikely outcome because punching women with the wrong opinions in the face in acceptable now.

    Glazers Out!



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Incitement to violence against women on this issue is omnipresent through social media.

    And as Douglas Murray says, he holds exactly the same views as gender critical women, but that he doesn't recieve anywhere near the level of abuse and threats of violence that women recieve for holding the same views. At the heart of this is misogyny.

    It's absolutely disgusting and it never gets called out enough. At most, what typically gets said is "yes, it's wrong, can we move on now please?" -- and utterly disingenuous dismissal.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    The person in that video should be prosecuted for incitement of violence and made an example of, we all know that's an unlikely outcome because punching women with the wrong opinions in the face in acceptable now.


    WE don’t all know that it’s for the reason you put forward, that they won’t be prosecuted for incitement to violence though. Another, far more plausible reason could be that it’s simply too stupid to be entertaining that no reasonable person could take it seriously. Other plausible explanations include the possibility of it’s being defended as being within the context of political speech, which is permissible under current laws in the UK,

    The most likely explanation as to why the CPS wouldn’t be interested in pursuing a prosecution is because they’ve already been tipped off that “punch them in the face” is a meme, and they’d look pretty stupid taking it seriously, like, ‘Machine Gun Kelly’ levels of stupid:

    https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/machine-gun-kelly-punches-fan-1235367343/amp/



    And as Douglas Murray says, he holds exactly the same views as gender critical women, but that he doesn't recieve anywhere near the level of abuse and threats of violence that women recieve for holding the same views. At the heart of this is misogyny.

    It's absolutely disgusting and it never gets called out enough. At most, what typically gets said is "yes, it's wrong, can we move on now please?" -- and utterly disingenuous dismissal.


    Well as I’m sure you’re already aware, Douglas is as well-known a shìt-stirrer in those circles as Andrew Doyle, and if Douglas were actually serious about keeping a small notebook of cases where men scream their virtues on social media, he would have to write himself and Andrew up for a citation:

    It may be said that there are not yet enough entrants to diagnose this trend, but I would say that from Louis CK to Sam Kriss and Morgan Spurlock, it is worth keeping an eye on. Normal, regular men, do not need to try to scream their virtue on social media or anywhere else. Normal, regular women happen to notice that there is something slightly off about the sort of man who does.

    So perhaps I can invite people to join me in keeping a small notebook on these cases. Next time a man talks about the importance of cancelling men, just sit back and set your watch.

    https://unherd.com/2019/11/beware-the-creepy-male-feminist/



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    For a self described conservative you spend a lot of time rationalising the poor behaviour of some on the left.

    Here's what the person in the video said; "if you see a TERF punch 'em in the f*cling face".

    How you can describe that as some sort of tongue in cheek reference to some sort of meme is beyond me.

    All I see is an attempt to ignore and downplay something that can and should be appropriated at face value.

    Let's be clear, what that person said is not something I believe the majority of people who associate with the LGBTQIA+ ideology would condone or encourage but the person saying it did mean it.

    Glazers Out!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And it recieved widespread applause from the audience.

    It was considered an acceptable thing to say.

    And yes, you're right. Most gay and bisexual people are appalled at what is happening. Most keep it to themselves because the backlash they may otherwise experience is a real threat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    They were like a baying mob.

    If any other group were being spoken about in the same way people would be up in arms.

    Why it's acceptable for a man (or a biological male identifying as a female or whatever it might be in any given situation) to encourage violence against women is beyond me.

    People inventing some sort of gossamer thin excuse of "boys will be boys" as an explanation for why someone would say such a thing is baffling.

    It's also always an opportunity to have a go at nasty gay men like Douglas Murray who have the audacity to not fall in line with the bizarre group think of the current mob.

    It's as if people really believe that your sexuality defines every single aspect of your personality.

    When I see those type of voices standing up and speaking out against the current BS I'm staggered by the sheer amount of courage and integrity those people have. They're making themselves a target for all sorts of harassment but they stand by their beliefs anyway.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Do you feel that this is representative of the left?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    It's representative of an element of the left.

    To expand on that, it's an element that ends up being more influential than it should be because everyone is too nervous to call them out.

    Glazers Out!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It constitutes a threat that emerges from the left.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    The "silence is violence" philosophy, seems to go very quiet, when literal violence is advocated for by their own. As you've pointed to yourself, the biggest issue with neo leftism, is a simple inability to denounce the worst elements from their own side. They literally are not capable of it, as in their minds, it lends support to the other side.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Did someone just try to claim calling for punching women in the face “is a meme”?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Being Conservative doesn’t mean anything one way or the other in terms of how much time a person spends rationalising the poor behaviour of some on the Left.

    I’m not aware of your political views for example, and I could easily point out that you spend an inordinate amount of time rationalising the poor behaviour of some on the Left, framing it as a threat to society, with the expectation that anyone should take your claims seriously, with the rationalisation that the reason they don’t take it seriously is because punching women with the wrong opinions in the face is acceptable now.

    I offered you more reasonable and at least rational explanations as to why the individual in question would not be likely to face prosecution for their political views. I say their political views not just because as you pointed out they have the Antifa flag waving, but because Feminism is a political ideology, Radical Feminism is a branch of that ideology, and Transgender Inclusion is yet another branch within Radical Feminist ideology.

    Radical feminists making radical political statements is nothing new, Andrea Dworkin for example famously claimed that all sex is rape, Valerie Solanas was famous for her SCUM manifesto, and so on. Germaine Greer was… well, anything but germane in expressing her political views at the time when she was held in high regard by Feminists as someone worth listening to. Anyone who wasn’t a Feminist didn’t think much of her as being someone worth taking seriously.

    Same thing is happening here - YOU (and a few others, to be fair), want to amplify the behaviour of an idiot and claim it’s representative of a threat from the Left, everyone else is just pointing out the glaring association fallacy in your argument. Much like the association fallacy you made earlier between bad arguments and Liberals in attempting to assert that according to your assessment I must be Liberal because you think my argument was bad, as though it isn’t possible for Conservatives to make bad arguments.

    I still don’t know your political views, but it would be unreasonable to assume your irrational fears about a threat from the Left are based on anything other than attempting to amplify the behaviour of a small number of idiots to arouse paranoia and suspicion among a particularly gullible section of society prone to scouring the internet for examples which confirm their already held views of other people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    I never said that person was demonstrating a danger coming from the left.

    I simply observed that they were inciting violence.

    If you really believe that making excuses for a person who wants to encourage others to punch women then that's your position and you're welcome to it but it's an odd rock to choose to die on.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Perhaps you need to be more specific in your questioning if you feel those answers weren't what you anticipated.

    Glazers Out!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nobody argued that extremism represents the entire left. Much of the left are equally appalled by this.

    What I'm saying is that this form of extremism within some parts of the left needs to be called out far more than it is. It's absolutely alarming that at a gathering about trans rights, a speaker recieves support and applause from the audience from their position that "TERFs" should be physically assaulted.

    I have never ever seen a human rights gathering where a speaker recieves applause for the suggestion that women should be attacked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    You could at least try to keep your narrative straight rather than hopping around like a hen on a hot griddle when anyone attempts to have a reasonable discussion with you about what you’re arguing should be regarded as someone who should be made an example of because of what you declare is something that can and should be appropriated at face value; an element of the Left, but you’re not saying they are a threat, or a danger coming from the Left, but they should be prosecuted for incitement of violence.

    And you argue that the reason we all know they won’t be prosecuted for incitement of violence is because punching women with the wrong opinions in the face is acceptable now, and it’s an element of the Left that ends up being more influential than it should because everyone is afraid to call them out.

    I didn’t make excuses for anyone, I provided you with alternative and more reasonable and rational explanations as to why people aren’t interested in entertaining idiots like that. Because they regard those people as idiots, nothing whatsoever to do with their political beliefs or characteristics, everything to do with the fact that they’ve assessed their opinions as not worth getting their knickers in a twist about, because it’s just silly, absurd and not worth entertaining.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Again, not really my question.

    I'd agree with what you say, but the question now is: why bring it up if you accept it as extremism and not representative of the left?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    How can you possibly know that much of the left are equally appalled by this as you’re claiming to be? They don’t appear to have expressed any interest either way, let alone offered an opinion on it.

    It’s not any way alarming that anyone at that rally would come out with a statement like that and be applauded for it. They didn’t receive applause in any case for saying women should be attacked, they specifically referred to TERFs - Transgender Exclusionary Radical Feminists, a term coined to distinguish between Feminists who are inclusive of people who are transgender in their Feminist philosophy, and those Feminists who are opposed to including people who are transgender in their Feminist philosophy.

    It was originally conceived as a benign descriptor, and became weaponised over time to the point it’s at now where it is used in a derogatory manner to refer to Radical Feminists who argue against the inclusion of people who are transgender in Feminist ideology. They are often also opposed to the inclusion of men in Feminist philosophy, something which Emma Watson found out when she attempted to promote the He4She campaign as a Hunan Rights centred approach to Feminism which included advocating Feminism for men. That went down about as well as could be expected 🙄



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In exactly the same way why we bring up examples of extremism on the far-right.

    But look, do you have an opinion on the footage and how the audience reacted positively?

    Because up to this point, your ire is with those highlighting the extremism rather than condemning the extremism itself.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    My "ire" if you wish to describe it that way is people not knowing the difference between moderate and far and creating posts like this in order to portry them as left-wing threats when in fact it's just digs at the left. I'm don't requent the right-wing thread, so I don't know if it happens there or not, but I do see threats from the right as lies and exaggerated claims in order to scaremonger - and that most certainly is not just the far.

    Back on topic, either you see this as a threat (even thuogh you accept it's mostly fringe) or you just want to go on about an anti-left rant - which is why I asked and still expect an answer: why did you post it if you accept it's not representative of the left?

    I've been here with you before: you can't articulate what it is you're specifcially scared of so you just target everything.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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