Marvel Cinematic Universe general stuff

CastorTroy · 08-07-2023 7:35pm

Just finished rewatching Captain Marvel and it had more humour and she had more personality than I remembered. Think it's her brief appearances since then that made me think otherwise.

Brief_Lives · 08-07-2023 9:22pm

I have never heard of the phrase "a Mary Sue".

flazio · 08-07-2023 9:54pm

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

I think I remember Agents of SHIELD making fun of the trope when Daisy (then still called Skye) said the orphanage that raised her named her Mary Sue Poots.

martingriff · 08-07-2023 10:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823182#Comment_120823182

That was also down to her attitude some justified in here feminist beliefs. From what I see she has cut back on

RobbingBandit · 08-07-2023 10:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823151#Comment_120823151

Of course Bond fucked up in Goldeneye 006 was the **** villain a fellow agent that graduated along side Bond, plus have you ever drank a shaken Martini it's like drinking warm Coca-Cola.

martingriff · 08-07-2023 10:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810057#Comment_120810057

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120810224#Comment_120810224

I think there was an A Force (think that's what they were called) movie been talked about and it was a nod to that

nix · 09-07-2023 2:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120821203#Comment_120821203

Fair enough, me either, i was just interested on what characters popped into your head for the male ones, but they aint Mary Sue's my dood 😎

Foxtrol · 09-07-2023 7:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120823151#Comment_120823151

Don't think there was a dollar number that would have kept Gunn when becoming the DC Feige came on the table. Maybe offering to take over from Feige at Marvel at some point might have done it but I doubt it as he has free rein at DC to build out a world rather than take over one that has a set path.

It'll be interesting how Gunn does in the DC role. Unsure how what he has done in superhero movies will translate to other characters and a wider universe.

pixelburp · 10-07-2023 11:30am

In an AMA on social media, Simu Liu basically confirmed what was already suspected: that Shang-Chi 2 is in limbo ATM, with no clear timeline of when that might come out

Loughc · 10-07-2023 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829145#Comment_120829145

The writers strike is going to kill almost of projects on the bubble as well. Writers strike is a pain they need to pay them what they want.

Drumpot · 10-07-2023 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120829355#Comment_120829355

All marvel need to do is to copy and paste a mix of a few of their earlier movies and they could roll out another 4 movies and nobody would notice any difference.

Incidentally, I was watching CA the other day and really enjoyed it. Gets better on repeat watching. When you flick then to the newer stuff, it’s just chalk and cheese. The quality of the earlier movies (Captain American trilogy probably the strongest) is miles off the newer stuff on so many levels.

If it’s accepted that the CA trilogy was on average 8/9 out of 10, then the newer stuff is closer to 5/6 out of 10. That’s a massive drop in quality. And it’s when you watch the older stuff, you can see so much more of the quality drop. We have all become numb to the blandness and “meh” of the newer stuff that it can be easy to not really see how far the product has been diluted.

Loughc · 10-07-2023 2:54pm

Like any growing business marvel studios expanded too quickly and tried doing too much. They should have stuck to a 2/3 movie a year schedule and one big team up movie every 3/4 years.

I don’t blame them for branching out to C list heroes as the A listers actors were jumping ship. The problem with a connected universe is they can’t James Bond a franchise like iron man and just place the lead star.

Brief_Lives · 10-07-2023 3:51pm

First look at Deadpool and Wolverine

pixelburp · 10-07-2023 4:05pm

I have to laugh at how having gone to lengths to match the comic Wolverine costume, they drew the line at the blue underpants.

Midnight_EG · 10-07-2023 5:59pm

I've a hard time believing that picture is real, it screams photoshop and yes I know it came from RR himself

Foxtrol · 10-07-2023 6:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830374#Comment_120830374

The way you're talking you'd swear that Marvel were DC - where you'd have a case after their flop after flop after flop.

Having some minor growing pains as you scale is completely normal for a company once you learn from it and from comments it appears Marvel have. It doesn't mean a company did 'too much' or did things 'too quick'.

The only two years that MCU released more than 3 movies was 2017 when Marvel was at its peak (GotG 2, Homecoming, Ragnarok, Black Panther) and 2021 when they had a backlog of movies from the pandemic. If you're pointing to TV shows as evidence, I dont believe they had too much of an impact. They've been pretty standalone and I doubt they had much impact to the quality of the movies.

I'd argue COVID has been a far bigger issue for the MCU than their growth. COVID has messed up every element of the movie making ecosystem and a connected universe is impacted to a far greater extent. Now whether they should have pulled the plug on TV once COVID happened is debatable but for me I'd far prefer the stories experienced on TV than have them locked away on scripts in the filing cabinet and 3% better movies over that period.

Loughc · 10-07-2023 7:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831370#Comment_120831370

Jesus I didn’t mean that at all I don’t think they’re a flop by any imagination.

I do think they rushed things and gave their fx contractors too much too do on a tighter deadline.

I enjoy the tv shows to be fair but I do think the movies has massively dropped in quality.

pjohnson · 10-07-2023 7:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120830374#Comment_120830374

Yeah they really seemed to think the "Marvel" brand alone equalled success. They kinda forgot the actual characters matter and started greenlighting some mad stuff.

Like the MCU was based on a fairly limited crew of big characters they still had access to when they started it. There was no Spidey or X-Men or Fantastic 4 and all the associated characters.

Foxtrol · 10-07-2023 7:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831694#Comment_120831694

That's exactly my point - you're claiming they 'expanded too quickly and tried doing too much' with no real evidence for it.

A company who did as you said would have a list of DC level flops to their name and the MCU doesn't.

Loughc · 10-07-2023 7:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831747#Comment_120831747

They don’t have flops but compare phase one two and three to phase four and five and the drop off in quality is undeniable.

pjohnson · 10-07-2023 7:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831793#Comment_120831793

Yep. The comfort blanket of box office = success/not flop doesn't wash with most.

Love and Thunder, Eternals and Quantumania are all dead bottom tier MCU films.

Foxtrol · 10-07-2023 7:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831793#Comment_120831793

As I said in my post, I'd argue COVID is a far bigger cause of 'quality' issues than them expanding too quickly.

It is multifaceted - resetting the story from Endgame was always going to be painful, then COVID, then relying on lower tier heroes, and then growing in scale. I'd argue out of all of those the scale part has the least part to play in quality differences - which are in my opinion are overplayed when you compare to the output from DC which is nearly lower than MCU in every movie.

Penn · 10-07-2023 7:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831747#Comment_120831747

I'd also agree they expanded too quickly without enough forethought, especially when it came to the TV shows. They were announcing shows and spin-offs left and right. Wandavision was barely over when they announced an Agatha spin-off, and I think they announced a solo Vision spin-off too. Hawkeye led to an Echo spin-off (which nobody wants) and then also a Daredevil one as they also brought back Kingpin. They were doing Ironheart and Armour Wars shows (though Armour Wars is now going to be a film). There were two or three different Wakanda-based shows announced I think.

They definitely started diluting the entire MCU with the amount of content they were announcing, though have thankfully started easing off on it all. It was especially ridiculous because they weren't even giving enough time for these shows to get second seasons if they were good, instead just jumping on to the next thing or a spin-off. Of all the shows they've done so far, Loki and What If are the only ones to get a second season.

Foxtrol · 10-07-2023 8:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120831885#Comment_120831885

Most of those shows aren't designed to have second seasons and would likely be terrible if they tried to shoehorn one in.

Agree on the announcing so much but even if they didn't they would likely be still working on many of these behind the scenes. They probably just wanted to be open about it rather than dealing with leaks.

It is incredibly common for tv shows especially to be in pre-production before they get pulled. Only a few of the ones you listed ever had dates tied to them so I wouldnt call them announced until then

Penn · 10-07-2023 10:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832083#Comment_120832083

I get all that, but it makes it hard to care about some of the characters/stories. Moon Knight in particular, if it doesn't get a second season or he doesn't come back in something else, will just have been a waste of time as the show itself wasn't that great. Kate Bishop from Hawkeye, where's she going to end up? Will we even see her again?

The scattergun approach makes it harder to get invested in the shows themselves. I've enjoyed the shows more than most, but why get invested in the characters in the shows if just the main character goes off and switches to the movies and you never see any of the other characters again?

~Rebel~ · 10-07-2023 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832490#Comment_120832490

That's the case of any limited series of any kind though really, right? Like, as long as you enjoy the show, and get something out of what you're watching, then it's not a waste of time, and it doesn't really matter if it's setting up something else afterwards. And if you're not enjoying the show, then it's perhaps either just not your cup of tea, or a bad show, and maybe isn't worth putting your time towards.

Now, I totally get that there's an added complexity that the MCU has instilled something of an 'completionist' element, where we want to be fully up to date. But since the end of phase 3 - with TV shows in particular - I think we've moved into a position where we as consumers can/must choose which bits interest us the most and not feel pressured to watch something just because it's in-universe. The forthcoming team-ups like The Marvels i'm sure will do a decent job of doing enough of a catch up so we're not lost. I feel like I got enough out of Kate Bishop and the Moon Knight story that what they've done already justified their existence enough, and if we don't see more, that's ok.

Penn · 10-07-2023 10:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832582#Comment_120832582

It's hard to consider any of them as just a normal limited series though being part of a Cinematic Universe. Even Moon Knight, the most unconnected of all the shows, ended with an obvious setup for the potential of more stories with the character (not a cliffhanger, but definitely leaving the door open for him to come back).

As for just not watching some of the shows, Dr.Strange 2 kind of shows why that's difficult, because I'd say anyone who didn't watch Wandavision would have been completely lost seeing Wanda suddenly turn evil, not getting the references to Westview etc. You get just about enough information, but you lose out on a lot too, and the trouble is you don't know how much relevant info you are or aren't missing unless you've seen both things anyway.

It's not a huge issue, but I do just think they went too full-on with the shows for a bit, announcing and approving new shows and spin-offs without giving themselves time to see how the shows they had were faring out, see what needs adjusting, how they blend and intertwine with the movies etc.

Foxtrol · 11-07-2023 2:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832490#Comment_120832490

The MCU is becoming like Marvel comics. Somethings standalone and other feed into other stories.

Moon Knight might appear again but if not it had a good season. I'd be very surprised if Kate Bishop doesn't appear within the mix of Young Avengers characters around NYC.

Just enjoy the show with the knowledge there might be additional payoff later or there might not.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832747#Comment_120832747

Getting just about enough information has been the case in the MCU forever, along with every other expanded universe or franchise or sequels.

Mrs Foxtrol wanted to watch Scream 6 at the weekend despite neither of us seeing Scream 4 or 5 and I definitely didn't enjoy it as much as someone who saw the others but they provided enough info to get through it (from the Secret Invasion thread - another example of a movie doing an absolutely terrible job of pretending to be in NYC). I knew what I was getting going into it and set my expectations in advance - the same as those who go into Dr Strange 2 without seeing Wandavision despite Wanda being on every poster and trailer.

There are just a new group of MCU fans who don't want/cant watch all the new material and they're facing the exact same experience that a huge number of the general public are used to when they sit into MCU movies and haven't watched every movie beforehand.

Doctor DooM · 11-07-2023 9:34am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120832490#Comment_120832490

For me, this is where I feel the MCU is less enjoyable these days. The arc is gone, it's no longer as fun to speculate where plots are heading with friends, there's so many threads left open for so long without an explanation (who was Ralf Bohner in Wandavision? Who was the person in witness protection they were worried about at the start?).

It's not that everything has to be one interconnected story, but for the MCU to really work there has to be a general nudging in one direction and to be fair, I think the main culprit there is actually COVID. If you go back and look at the originally announced timeline, all these multiverse shenanigans spread out and that we're still seeing now were supposed to come out in a row, like a mini storyline to themselves.

As for Kate Bishop- we are 100% seeing her again, they've introduced her (Hawkeye), young Loki, Wanda's kids (The Asgardian/ Wiccan and Speed), Ant-Man's daughter (Stature), and Isiah Bradley's grandson Eli (Patriot). It'd be very easy to add a young Kang clone (Iron Lad) and a Kree/Skrull hybrid (Hulkling) and you have all the Young Avengers. Could throw in Ms. Marvel if you don't want to do the Defenders. Vision is floating around, who's usually their "adult in the room".

I'd argue that no real world indication of this happening 2.5 years after Billy and Tommy were introduced is a bit of a sign of some covid initiated chaos that the writer strike is probably making a lot worse.

pixelburp · 11-07-2023 9:58am

As I see it, the TV shows basically have a tricky equation where, having very definitively established the core buy-in of the MCU is its long-form storytelling and interconnected structure, the TV shows are existing as once-off and giving the air of being broadly broken away from the main cinematic MCU (obviously Ms. Marvel appearing soon in her own film kinda negates that point), but without a singular hook to grab audiences either. It's not a new problem of course; Agents of SHIELD spent its entire lifespan in a constant state of being both in the MCU, but not.

I see it as a "problem" because there's a slight sense of "well, what's the point then?", and where these shows have perhaps struggled to leave a mark has been their distinct lack of ... I dunno, oomph. That they come across a bit too Just Another MCU Thing to stand out. By all accounts, we've yet to see that definitive Must Watch MCU show that went a bit viral on a par with - by way of comparison - The Mandalorian did with Star Wars. Some standout show that has folks chatting, and indeed generated a bit of memetic value. Loki came close I think, by dint of that character's existing popularity and general thirst for all things Hiddleston. Not every show has the benefit of a Baby Yoda of course.

Maybe I'm just over-projecting my own apathy but having been deeply underwhelmed by Secret Invasion episode 1, it's another MCU show that left a feeling of redundancy. And we don't know what value and metrics Disney are gunning for with these MCU shows either - maybe OK is good enough, and they're not looking for a Last of Us or Mando level of interest. Loki earned its stars and was a great watch, and I really enjoyed Hawkeye as a knockabout adventure - but the rest? Well. I might finish She-Hulk one of these days, for a drunken dare :-D

Marvel Cinematic Universe general stuff

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