M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

It was a terrible time, and I'm glad I wasn't the one making decisions. But I think it's important to say too that decisions were made and I remember specifically being told in 2019 by people high up in the NTA that there was no money available even for road crossings or footpaths in one large employment hub. Money was not made available to transport infrastructure.

This thing where we're suddenly all discussing which projects SHOULD have been moving forward sooner is very recent in my opinion. We're in a much better place now and just need to get transport infrastructure out of the election cycle if possible.

A very very important point. Ireland since independence has had a poor track record where capital expenditure and infrastructure generally, and transport infrastructure in particular, are concerned. There were a a few notable exceptions (Shannon and Dublin runways/airports, ESB generation and distribution capacity, the motorway building program in the noughties, and some other headline projects). There are a few other stand out projects, but their success was driven by how far behind we had fallen and the opportunity this presented for us to avail of new/emerging technologies and leapfrog others. Most of the rest has been patchy and piecemeal at best. And for a period of the 70s and 80s, the capital budget was used as little more than a slush fund to finance some very dubious projects. Part of it is a lack of understanding about the nature and impact and real benefit of capital expenditure and an inability to properly comprehend the payback paradigm. Spending your way out of a recession isn't always the best way to go, but there are very good reasons why capital expenditure should be maintained through good times and bad. I'd agree that shelving the M20 in 2011 was far from a good decision, but its also far from being the worst ever decision made. Sadly, despite all "long term" and strategic decision making structure together with all the checks and balances that were put in place post 2011, nothing we are seeing at present suggests that it will be much better in the future.

It should also be said that we haven't seen many ministers who have been capable or willing to take the kind of long term or strategic view that is so important where infrastructure is concerned. Patrick McGilligan was one who did, but you'd struggle a bit after that.

I know it OT but would a new road from the bend by Fermoy Community Hospital over to near the Sanmina factory be an option? It wouldn't have the same gradient limitations as the motorway so could slope down for 180m or so south of the river and more north of it, reducing the size of the bridge.

The old bridge in the town should have a lane given over to pedestrians/cyclists but I guess that wont be considered until through traffic is reduced.

See post above. I think @Cookiemunster has the evidence you seem to have missed.

Generally in Ireland populist candidates elected ten to be on the slightly left of centre spectrum rather than even mildly on the right of the political spectrum

Michael Fitzmaurice, Michael McNamara, Richard O Donoghue, the Healy Rae's. Michael Collins,Arian Harkin etc

The only right of spectrum Independent TD is Verona Murphy.

That wasn't how I'd read the post you were responding to. Now we're obviously waaay off topic, but while the M20 must go ahead DESPITE the fact that it's not a sustainable project (or even neutral) we still have a wider problem that few in government seems to properly articulate.

There is currently no REALISTIC plan to get rural Ireland onto fully sustainable transport. And the urban areas need to be strongly skewed towards sustainable modes to make up for this. Congestion charges, high city centre parking charges, way more mass transit and prioritisation of same, vehicle size/weight restrictions etc. People should be able to get their personal car to the city but the majority should not be bringing their car through the city centre. With obvious exceptions!

That's my understanding of the current situation anyway. Because even outside of any environmental consideration, it's just hugely wasteful (energy, space, quality of life, etc) to be bringing private cars into the city. It has been literally killing the cities. I think I've recently seen a change where Cork City are starting to embrace this, and I think I've seen that point years ago in some parts of Dublin.

But my overall point was that we need to accept that as a society: the idea that the critical infrastructure projects should be blocked is very unhelpful, and so is the idea that I should be able to drive my private car into the centre of the city for my own convenience.

Anyway, that's why M20 (etc) should go ahead and also why there needs to be way more measures in the urban areas. People are going to keep trying to block both, but those people need to be the extreme minority

Your post sets out the reasons for replacing the N20 in a way that’s likely to meet widespread agreement on this forum. Nothing new there. 

It also sets out the Green Party Position in a manner far more coherent than the Green’s appear capable of. If indeed it is the Green Party position, which I’m not at all sure that it is. That party appears incapable of arriving at an agreed position on anything other than soundbites and aspirations. And even less capable of communicating it in a clear and coherent manner that gets people on-board. 

Fantastically sensible post.

To me, the Green Party position is to deal with Ireland as they would wish it to be - everyone living in cities, towns and villages, and only farmers living on the land. It's a philosophy I 100% agree with. However, Ireland as it is, is vastly different to this aspiration. Decades of disgraceful and corrupt "planning" have left us with housing scattered all over the country in a completely unsustainable way. And the people who live in the countryside cannot be wished or forced back into urban environments. These people will always be dependent on cars.

So any sensible approach should be exactly as you've outlined. You want to drive your (electric) car? OK, you can drive it to the multiple Park n Rides we're going to build outside all major cities and towns. From there you can get a train, bus or bike for the rest of your journey. And if you're getting a bus or bike, we're going to have excellent Bus and bike lanes, combined with frequent and cheap/free buses.

In short Green Party, less motorway blocking (not that we have many left to build now anyway), and more - MUCH more - Park n' Rides, and the lanes and services that they need.

AFAIK, the only (vast majority of) Park n Rides that we do have in Ireland are train ones. It's almost as if Bus Park n' Rides are banned in Ireland. You only have to look up North at the Bus Park n Rides near dual-carriageway junctions to see how it could be done.

I'm not just having a shot at the Green Party here - I've come to the conclusion that our local authorities (made up mostly of non-Green councillors and officials) have been so bad in their provision of Park N Rides that the National Government should really step in and do it.

I still avoid it anytime outside of a Sunday morning or evening drive. Its much more relaxing to take the M8 to Mitchelstown and across the Hospital route - partly because its 80kmh and there is only one overtaking point for 40km so no stress. Since its 80kmh you have no need to pass the lorries anyway because they can generally maintain it. There are one or two obnoxious bends but once you know it its fine.

Did the N20 south yesterday evening and it was fine but yes, one person in an 06 van pootling along at 65kmh between Croom and Charleville - got around him, then the farmer had all traffic stopped for a few minutes to bring cows across the road. To be fair to him - not a nice job and he was letting the cows through in groups so as not to hold traffic up too much. Seemed like a well rehearsed job.

@BagofWeed 100% with you on this. It looks like there was a bunch of us on that road yesterday. I almost always take the M8, R513 and N24 when travelling between Limerick and Cork but on this occasion needed to turn off at West Mallow so took the N20 yesterday afternoon. Got stuck behind a blue hippy style transit van with a Volvo SUV clung to it’s backside and marking the white line just outside Croom and followed them all the way to Mallow at open road speeds varying from 65 to 75. The only time we reached 80 was on the straight near Ballyhea which, together with an oncoming truck, blocked what little chance there was of overtaking safely. We were overtaken on two occasions, both of which I would classify as utterly reckless driving (solid white line, oncoming traffic swerving, no hard shoulders, zero margin for error etc)

I know that road has an exceptionally high accident rate, but every time I am forced to drive it I come away amazed that the number of fatalities isn’t considerably higher.

The article should read "or Type 2 Dual carriageway, which has a speed limit of 100 km/h".

Personally, I think the route will be entirely Type1 DC under motorway restrictions for consistency; but on traffic volume, I can see how an argument could be made for building at 2+2 for about 25km around the county boundary.

"Motorway" doesn't determine speed limits: For example, exiting the tunnel at Dunkettle in Cork, if you take the M9 motorway, the speed limit (100) is lower than if you take N25 (120).

2+2 cannot be used with 120 km/h limits. Junction design on all dual carriageways is based on traffic volumes: 2+2 roads can have the same kind of junctions as motorways, with sliproads, but only if they have the same kind of traffic volumes using them, but of course it's hard to have that kind of volume using a junction if the mainline doesn't also carry volumes that would require it to be a Type 1 DC.

You see stop-sign joins on 2+2 for the same reason as you see them on type 1 single carriageways: low volumes of traffic joining.

N20 is a very, very quiet road in parts, and even though my own feeling is that ot should be built as type1 to provide a consistent cross-section up the west side of the country from Cork to Tuam, I also know that if 2+2 had been an option at the time, a lot of M18 and M17 would not be motorway...