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Air Corps SAR

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Surley this report from sligo that the Bristow Paramedics will not be up to the same standard is scaremongering and total BS




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,379 ✭✭✭davetherave


    It is the 3rd of July meeting here - https://www.sligococo.ie/YourCouncil/CountyCouncil/Recordings/

    That motion starts about 08:15.

    It is pretty much what the article says.


    "People have raised concerns me that those who have been award the contract, Bristow Ltd, would not have the same facilities which mean that our current service would be downgraded, in that those who provide the paramedical service would not be in a position to offer the level of care that they are currently providing"

    "My understanding is that those who have been awarded the contract may not be in a position to have that same level of care that would result in the loss of life, possibly, along the western seaboard.

    Like, it's Bristow Helicopters, they know what they are doing. They've been doing it for years in the UK and the North Sea. It's not Honest Dave's Helicopter Rescue.

    Interestingly enough, what the article doesn't mention (or chooses not to) is when the councillor who seconded the motion starts, he says "I'm also a member like Cllr Maguire (the proposer), and Cllr Gilroy (the only other speaker on the motion), of the board of Sligo Airport." There could be a bit of loyalty to CHC there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,073 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    It is total BS. Usual gombeen shite talk from Irish rural Councillors who would do or say ANYTHING for a bit of press coverage.

    You'd never guess the local elections are in 10 months



  • Registered Users Posts: 237 ✭✭mupper2


    Question for any lads who know, has there been any missions/how frequently have they occurred where the S92 was used but the AW189 would be unable to do similar?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,469 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    If anyone wants to register to see full spec. comparison https://air.one/compare/leonardo-aw189,sikorsky-s-92 From what can be seen without an account, they seem to have similar capabilities, with the AW189 having greater range.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,464 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    I'm surprised the seating capacity is the same, the S92 looks much bigger visually.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    The tail area increases the cabin volume, but because it's tapered, you can't seat people there.




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    I was talking to an EX IRCG S92 Pilot, he said "S92 can officially lift 20 casualties (but if situation warranted it could cram more in) & with the reserve fuel tank it had the endurance to give some margin when operating out at 200NM. What is said on paper as capability versus what actually happens when the mission changes, updates." Also was talking to a Crew person on one of the duty S92's "Space inside a helicopter when operating in Ireland is everything especially as we are a combined HEMS & SAR Operation, A full medical team of 3 & associated gear plus a child on an ICU trolley can easily fit & be wheeled up the ramp of the S92, this wont happen with an AW189 where you will be on your knees pulling it across the floor.

    Great photos doing the rounds on twitter lately, AW189 just cant do what the S92 can its that easy.




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    As Good as the S92 is there is drawbacks with it so maybe its a mixed fleet the IRCG need. There has being issues with the S92 on cliff rescues due to the washdown from the rotors making rescues diffcult.

    The other issue is and i know some here dont agree with this but we have only Two Trauma centers in the country CUH and the bussier Mater. At the start of the process the medical community were asked on there views and they told the state that in serious cases of trauma the pateint needs to be dropped at the door and not dublin airport.

    An here is the problem the S92 cant get in to the mater but a smaller aircraft can hence when 112 did it in a training excercise. Ironically i think the area they used for landing now has sisk cabins on it. So maybe thats why they are happy going with AW189 if thats what Bristow are using. Also remember in this contract there is a greater amount of inland HEMS expected



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Not sure what the current status is with CUH. There are plans for a new pad to the NW of the site. As it was they had ruled out the S92 being able to use it. Normally the S92 lands in a nearby school football field, and the patient goes by ambulance the remaining distance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,100 ✭✭✭jonnybigwallet


    I see the AC are attending the RIAT at Fairford this weekend and are taking along an AW139 and an EC135 for static display.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Looks like Bristow seam Confident they will be successfull in the Commerical Court




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    There'll be very little flying displays there this year. Bring wellies & good raingear.

    On the upside, photos will be crystal clear.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    That has nothing to do with Air Corps SAR, they are celebrating Heli60 which is 60 years of IAC Heli Operations, also there has been plenty of years where they have been invited to RIAT & were unable to attend as they simply didnt have the capability.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    I see on the Aircraft fourm that the state have being given the go ahead to award bristow the sar contract. If bristow keep the current crews and change to the AW189 how do the logistcs of that work. How will the existing crews be trained up while still working for CHC for the next 18 months?



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,073 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Depends.

    CHC could get arsey about the TUPE undertakings, while they are still legally contesting the contract award.

    The Pilots could opt to go elsewhere with CHC and not need re-training anyway, in which case, Bristow would assign their own 189 trained flight crews.

    But its not new ground, contracts like this change hands all over the World in SAR, offshore Oil and Gas, energy grid, mining, land management and conservation, VIP service etc etc. They'll figure it out.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Some light reading below. It is confirmed in the court case Bristow will be using an all AW189 Fleet( it reads 6 Helicopters) . CHC brought up a point that what has changed that the AW189 was not good enoght for the Air Corps to use for SAR according to the department but is ok now by Bristow. The good Senator is menionted a few times.




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    I'm picking through the document here. Relevant points below. Summary, experts say new AW189 will do the job better than old S92. Regardless of range or capacity differences. The only reason this action is being taken is to delay Bristow ordering new helis and as a result making them unable to deliver when the CHC contract ends.

    Mr. Simon Tye(“Mr. Tye”) gave sworn evidence on behalf of Bristow that Bristow is procuring five new helicopters and that it has to acquire and modify one fixed wing aircraft during the transition period.


    Evidence was also provided from the helicopter manufacturer engaged by Bristow to the effect that the transition period amounts to a ‘very compressed lead-time’ and that standard delivery terms for such helicopters would allow aperiod of ‘in excess of 20 months from order’ before the delivery of the helicopters.


    the fact that there are enhanced services which Bristow is to provide under the New Contract is not disputed. CHC’s only reply in relation to these additional enhancements is that its helicopters are larger, have more cabin space and can fly a longer range without refuelling,than Bristow’s helicopters. While not according undue deference, at this interlocutory stage,to the ‘fact’that Bristow’s helicopters have been approved by the expert evaluators who conducted the tender process, this is none the less a fact as much as what CHC says about its own helicopters is a ‘fact’ (in the sense that it is not controverted by Bristow). At this interlocutory stage therefore, this Court is not in a position to prefer one of these ‘facts’ regarding the helicopters, over the other. However, the fact that CHC’s helicopters are larger, have more cabin space and can fly longer without refuelling does not deflect from the fact that enhancements under the New Contract will not be available under the extended Existing Contract


    It is relevant to note therefore that CHC, when it was looking to ensure that it would win the tender,was stating that it was under a legal obligation to suspend the service at midnight on 30th June,2025, and so that if it were not awarded the New Contract there was a ‘severe’ risk that there would be a ‘gap’ in the Service, which all parties agree must be avoided at all costs.


    Yet, now that CHC has lost the tender, it is saying to this Court the exact contrary to what it said when it was hoping to win the tender, i.e. that it is in fact not legally obliged to suspend the Service, but rather that it is perfectly legal for it to provide the Service after midnight on 30th June, 2025.


    Firstly, even if the legal challenge to the tender process was to be resolved within six to nine months, Bristow has provided uncontroverted evidence of the very complex and interdependent nature of the 8,000 tasks which have to be completed in the two-year transition plan. Accordingly, it is not a case of these 8,000 tasks being simply ‘shifted to the right’ as regards dates in an excel sheet. This is not disputed by CHC. Indeed,it claims in its written submissions that the scale of the work which has to be done by Bristow during the two-year transition period is ‘staggering’


    In claiming that the balance of justice favours the continuation of the suspension, CHC puts particular emphasis on the fact that the helicopters which CHC use (the Sikorsky S-92A –“S92A”) are larger, have more cabin space and can fly a longer range without refuelling than the helicopters which Bristow will be using to provide the Service (the Leonardo AW189 –“AW189”).87.On this basis, CHC says that the balance of justice favours the continuation of the suspension since it is,in effect,claiming that CHC’s service is likely to save more lives than Bristow’s service.


    In this regard, all the parties rely on the judgment of Akenhead J. in the English High Court decision in Solent at para. 38 that:“It would be unfortunate not to say tragic if even one person died or suffered unavoidable serious physical or mental deterioration as a result of unavoidable delays in the provision of the improvements planned by the new contract [....] I do not think that the Court should take risks with people’s lives and health”.

    CHC says lives are at risk because,if this Court does not continue the suspension and allows the New Contract to be signed with Bristow, risks will be taken with lives since, amongst other things, the quality of Bristow’s helicopters are inferior to those of CHC’s, even though Bristow’s helicopters were approved by specialist evaluators who evaluated the tender for the Minister and even though they satisfy the requirements of the tender.


    In this regard, in its letter dated 31st May,2023 to CHC, the Minister summarised the evaluators’ decision, at p,5,as follows:“In summary, [Bristow] provided a more comprehensive response that gave greater confidence  that  their  chosen  helicopter configuration  (including system 

    27 integration, layout and associated equipment fit) was suitable for IRCG taskings[...]The [CHC] Submission did not provide enough assurance that 95% helicopter availability would be maintained throughout the life of the contract.While more maintenance personnel are to be employed, the total number may not be sufficient for an ageing fleet[...]In contrast, the Evaluation Team scored[Bristow’s]responses as Good, observing that [Bristow’s] fleet .... gives a high confidence in fleet resilience and thus achieving the availability target, although [Bristow]could have probably made more sophisticated use of the in-service data it has accumulated.”


    Deference cannot be shown to expert administrative decision at interlocutory stage?


    In particular, CHC claims that the interlocutory stage is not the stage at which this Court can show deference to the specialist decision makers(the evaluators)whose job it was to assess the respective merits of the tenders and who made the decision to award the New Contract to Bristow in the first place. This is because CHC says that an analysis of the decision which was made during the tender process (e.g. whether the Minister’s decision is vitiated by an error of fact or law)and so any deference to those expert decision markers, only arises when the substantive challenge to the decision is being heard and that deference does not apply when considering the question of whether the balance of justice supports the lifting/continuation of the suspension.


    However, it seems to this Court that there is a difference between,on the one hand,showing deference to the decision of an expert decision-maker at an interlocutory stage, which CHC is objecting to, and, on the other hand, completely ignoring as one of the facts, when considering the balance of justice,the decision of that decision-maker,and instead relying solely on the averments of a losing tenderer, which CHC is, it seems, urging this Court to do.


    At this interlocutory stage, in deciding where the balance of justice lies, this Court will not give due deference to the decision of the decision-maker. However,the fact that,after a prima facie valid tender process,expert evaluators considered the merits of the respective helicopters and opted for Bristow’s tender, is a fact which will be treated as any other fact, 


    which weighs in the balance of justice, when deciding whether to lift the suspension or not.It is entitled to be treated as a fact to be weighed in the balance of justice, just as much as the fact that CHC has made uncontroverted averments that its helicopters are bigger etc than Bristow’s


    In other words, this Court will not do, as seems to be implied by CHC, namely ignore the fact that there has been a decision by the expert evaluators and instead focus on certain uncontroverted averments to the effect that,for example,the S92A helicopter carries more passengers than the AW189 helicopter.Rather, this Court will consider those averments, which are those of a losing tenderer pointing out why its tender should have won,in conjunction with all the other facts, including the fact that the expert evaluators reached the contrary view.When it does so, this Court cannot conclude that the averments of CHC should be given greater weight than the other facts, so as to tip the balance of justice in favour of continuing the suspension.




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    Bristow have no Fixed wing aircraft picked yet they may have a chance to buy 2 casa 235s for the role yet. I presume the fixed wing will be either a king air or a business jet?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Presume nothing. HMCG Use a mix of SKA200, Diamond DA62, Piper Navajo, Cessna 406 and even a 737 for anti pollution. It depends what the tender wanted it to do.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    True but what ever they use it will have to have a long Loiter time considering our SAR area out in to the atlantic.

    It was also interesting in the case where mentioned the avalibilty of the current S92s would be come less but proably not unexpected with there age and useage over the last decade



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭EchoIndia


    Considering that the use of the AW189 was specified by Bristows in their tender, would they not also have mentioned the fixed-wing type or types they proposed to use?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Not in the initial stage, and it didn't come up as part of CHCs complaint.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,441 ✭✭✭Dohvolle


    Exactly, I know somewhere back in this thread the ages of the S92 CHC used for the Coast Guard was listed, I think the newest was a 2013 build, the rest 2006 or 2007.

    Do you really want to be commencing a 10 year contract with aircraft approaching 20 years service, no longer in production? (S92 Production line closed last year). Any potential replacement S92 would have to come from a small pool of aircraft that are working hard in the offshore industry.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    S-61's were 30/40 years old where retired from Irish Coast guard.... with spares and upgrades available, the S-92's have a lot of years left.

    I still think the crux of CHC's argument is valid, what makes the AW-189 a viable helicopter now, when it wasn't in the previous tender?

    Yes, it can be argued the Aw189 possibly matches up now, and it didn't at the previous tender, but that hasn't been clarified by anyone yet....

    I still think this is "project **** CHC", on the back of the 116 crash, and the only helos that can be bought new in the timeframe are AW189's.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,746 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    The difference now with the AW189 is that they are fitted with Lavazza coffee machines



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,073 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    There is no requirement for the Helicopters to be new. Bristow already operates a couple of dozen 189s, notably in service with HM Coastguard SAR, where they are the current service provider.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Psychlops


    EI-SAR was 52 at Retirement & the oldest in the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    Correct, however I did see a mention from Bristow somewhere with regards to new airframes, I just can't remember where...

    the inner cynic in me is concluding that this is the reason why Bristow are re-introducing AW139's in some HMCG based which would free up some 189's.

    If this is the case, this decision was long made before it went to tender.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 510 ✭✭✭AerLingus747


    some achievement.... I lots of fond memories of the S-61's, Dauphins and A3's rumbling over the house



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