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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    I (no one can) can't look through your posts to see if you ever hinted or stated that trans people don't exist. Stop being disingenuous.


    Here's a link (that you won't read) about what is a trans person, as you seem very confused about the situation altogether.




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Technically all laws are compelled by violence if enforcement, violation and contempt or resistance are all escalated for the nth degree.

    What rights do these people not have that others do?

    Healthcare, increasingly, for one, and not just for adolescents - some states want it banned out to age 26 (the Obamacare family cut-off age). But that's for the mirroring thread (dangers coming from the right ie. their moral cathedra against people living their own lives).

    Is the gender in the trans gender only male and female or are there more? How many more? Can you name some?

    Well let's see... there is Alpha Male, Beta Male, etc., gender seems to be on a spectrum for 'the right' also:

    Do they need to go through any change process, physical or psychological or can they just decide?

    That's much like asking if someone just decides to be gay. It's fallacious reasoning.

    If they do just decide do they need to tell anyone or just think it?

    They'd love to register their transition officially. Increasingly, the moral cathedra of the right is attempting to block that however, even though it specifically addresses the apparent concerns people have with trans persons "just deciding" as you put it, or "just thinking it":

    I agree there should be a bit less of the "do you condemn this" "do trans people exist" etc.

    Anyway.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Whats that got to do with it? I asked the person who falsely accused me of saying something to quote me and then you come in to deflect because it’s apparently my profiles issue? They can’t quote me because I never said that, what the hell have you got to do with it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I was just responding to the gish gallop of questions you had. They weren't personal questions? They seemed like fair game to answer.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sorry that was supposed to quote Flanuer O’Brien, was nothing to do with you.

    I’ll say one thing about you overheal, you are the only one who will say what they believe and stand by it.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Im not interested in what one or other website says what a trans person is as they all say different anyway and I’m not talking with them. What do you think they are?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,856 ✭✭✭nachouser


    It's a quirk of desktop vs mobile. There's no link on desktop for previous comments but there is a link on mobile.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,791 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    If that poster is making that statement then they don't need to look for the post so that is no excuse.

    I have looked and I don't see anything in the past few pages.

    Maybe the poster got him mixed up with someone else and can apologise.

    Maybe the poster is accusing someone of something they didn't say.

    Maybe the poster can quote the post and prove this person said trans people don't exist.

    It should be very easy for the accuser to quote the post for all to see.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien




  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Who knew wearing fishnets and leather makes a person trans 🤣

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,791 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    I looked and i didn't see it.

    You made the claim.

    Quote the poster and back up your accusation.

    It will be very easy to do.

    If I overlooked it, then I look forward to you showing me.



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,141 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    tesla_newbie threadbanned



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Richard Dawkins has weighed in on the far-left trans debate in recent years and, as with his established acerbic reflections on religion and atheism, Dawkins retains the same pointedness when it comes to the trans question.

    On what Sarah Jane Baker said in recent days, Dawkins is spot on.




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Someone described Sarah Jane Baker's comment as a meme a few days ago on this thread.

    Now the man who first conceptualised the meme has weighed in on the topic.

    An odd unitnend kind of prescience.

    Glazers Out!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Completely.

    The thing is, I've watched this footage perhaps a dozen times but it never ceases to horrify me how the audience responds.

    I mean, why? Why would you respond that way?

    It's actually disgusting; it's like watching some vile far-right rally advocating violence, with the audience lapping it up (look how the person in pink in the back responds to the use of violence; actually laughing / smiling).




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    'Calls for violence in the trans debate only come from one side'

    Dunno what planet this twitter user is from or why they spend $8/mo or even if they really are Richard Dawkins, given the sorry state of Twitter recently they even took away the ability to go to Twitter dot com and look at a profile to gauge its veracity. But anyway, that headline is clearly full of ****, eg:

    “They need to be convicted in trial and immediately shot in the back of the head, and then we can string them up above a bridge so the public can see the consequences of that kind of wickedness,” Graber said in the video. “There should be no excuse to not put these people to death.”


    But yeah, punching Nazis is bad etiquette and lacking in civility.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What has either of those random links got to do with Richard Dawkins and Sarah Jane Baker?

    Look, Dawkins' points stand on their own merits.

    No random link dump can disprove Dawkins by some kind of weird and false association.

    And in your latter remarks, you compare so-called "TERFs" with "Nazis". I'm seriously starting to think some elements of this movement are so extreme that police should be informed of the threats.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    The "random" link I was referencing, is from the random tweet you dumped, right here:

    I assumed you read what you contributed when you posted this.

    We have no idea if this person is Richard Dawkins. Doesn't matter anyway (appeal to 'authority' fallacy)

    And his point (shared: "calls for violence in the trans debate only come from one side") does not "stand on its own merits" I have through evidence refuted the premise of that argument.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    At the risk of disagreeing with you (it was me btw), and don’t get me wrong, I like you, so don’t take it personally, but I don’t think it was particularly prescient as Richard weighs in on everything these days that’s trending on Twitter as a means of staying relevant in a world where he is, frankly, no longer relevant.

    I suggest you prepare yourself as I’m ‘bout to tear the arse out of the joke, and that’s never fun, but anyway - yes, the ‘punch them in the face’ IS a meme, an Internet meme, in much the way that Dawkins illuminated the concept. He coined the term ‘meme’, but takes no credit for the original concept which is as old as the Ancient World.

    A quick Google is all that was necessary for those who weren’t familiar with the meme, and for those who imagined it was literal, well there’s no helping those people - they already heard what they wanted to hear and weren’t interested in engaging their critical faculties.

    Some of those people, such as Murray and Dawkins, while it’s plausible to suggest they’re old farts who are out of touch with reality and popular culture, it’s more likely they intentionally ignore the context in which the joke was made in order to further their attempts to induce moral panic in society about the threats posed to civilised society by being indifferent to an ideology which they do not share. It’s quite a common tactic - pick any ideology you’re opposed to, and then associate the worst of human behaviours with that ideology, and the rest takes care of itself. I’ve no doubt you can think of numerous examples.


    Aaaanyways, the context in which the joke was made is this -

    'I was gonna come here and be really fluffy and be really nice and say yeah be really lovely and queer and gay... Nah, if you see a TERF, punch them in the f****** face.' 

    Initially, the idea is in keeping with Dawkins perception of womanhood, that women are all fluffy and nice and would never use such language and all the rest of it, but the speaker switches it up and subverts expectations, and that’s where the joke lies. They initially conform to common social stereotypes associated with femininity, but then subvert those expectations and stereotypes with an emphasis on an entirely different set of stereotypes and expectations of femininity.

    I don’t know about Dawkins and Murray’s exposure to ideas which didn’t conform to their beliefs, but I dare say their experiences of girls and women are so limited that they can only imagine the version of femininity which suits themselves, and the idea of a girl or a woman who isn’t all fluffy and nice is an affront to their expectations, so much so that they imagine that someone who does not conform to their expectations must not be a woman. It’s difficult to say whether they are actually genuinely so cloistered, or whether their indignation is a pretence, a facade…

    But, maybe it is possible that they have never encountered a woman who embodies the stereotype of the Irish Mammy, you know, the woman who would chase after you with a wooden spoon or a rolling pin, ram a soupspoon of cod liver oil down your throat and tell you it’s good for you, call you “a fart of a bastard” if she’d ran a bath for herself and when she went to get a towel you took the opportunity to enjoy a hot bath for the first time in your life, ruining the experience for her… or maybe that was just my mother, I don’t know 🤔

    The point is anyway, that the idea of femininity isn’t just one single collection of ideals from which anyone can pick and choose to claim that their choices constitute a ‘real’ or ‘genuine woman’ as Dawkins puts it. Or maybe he’s just never read the book or seen the film adaptation of Gone With The Wind; Vivien Leigh is mesmerising, inspiring even, to a child of a certain age. I don’t know if either Dawkins or Murray have ever read Frankenstein, which polarised critics at the time of its publication, some who called it “a tissue of disgusting absurdity”.

    Upon discovering the author was a young woman, some people reacted in pretty much the same manner as Murray and Dawkins; that it wasn’t possible, there must be some other explanation, that it must have been the work of her husband, but they were having none of it -

    ”The writer of it is, we understand, a female; this is an aggravation of that which is the prevailing fault of the novel; but if our authoress can forget the gentleness of her sex, it is no reason why we should; and we shall therefore dismiss the novel without further comment".


    Imagine a world deprived of one of the greatest works of English literature because some crusty old farts determined the author was not a ‘genuine woman’? It should put this incident into perspective - it was a joke, and while there are a couple of explanations I can think of which would explain why some people don’t appear to have understood that it was a joke, the most likely explanation is that they are deliberately trying to present the incident out of context in order to portray it as an example of the threat to civilised society posed by people they were already prejudiced against before this incident even occurred.

    I wouldn’t call it prescient, just prejudice, in that they go looking for examples of evidence to support their claims, and when there isn’t any evidence to support their claims, they’ll invent and fabricate evidence to support their claims, often by deliberate misrepresentation of circumstances and absence of context in order to form a persuasive narrative.

    It’s often more simply referred to as propaganda, and there are many examples of the phenomenon throughout human history. It’s not as though the Church invented the concept, it existed long before they did, they just used it to portray gay men as predators and child molesters. When it emerged that the Church were protecting predators and child molesters, I found myself among people who were using the same propaganda tactics to portray Catholics as being predators and child molesters, and that’s why I’m always reminded of this meme -



    It’s a joke btw, just in case anyone is determined to take it literally 😒



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    He would of course! His first ‘law’ wasn’t all that observant either, given Hitler is for many people their most relevant point of reference in conversations about society and culture.

    His second ‘law’ just makes him look like a gobshyte who’s desperate to be relevant again in popular culture.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Yourself and Richard must have lead a sheltered life 🤣

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    What did Overheal say that you feel the need to call the police on them?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We're discussing threats from the left -- not whataboutery with nutjob pastors in the United States.

    The case with Sarah Jane Baker is a clear example of far-left extremism, yet you'd rather talk about pastors in the US. Do you have any thoughts on what Baker actually said?

    Not right-wing nutjobs, not fanatical US pastors, but Sarah Jane Baker on that Trans Pride stage in London.

    And on Richard Dawkins, I don't appeal to him as an "authority"; I just happen to believe he is right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    So again, something non threatening from the far left is passed off as something threatening from the left?


    Can you present ONE idea that is a) a threat, and b) from the (not far) left?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Extremism by definition comes from the fringe minority -- in this case, the far-left and not the left in general.

    Nobody has claimed the entire left is menacing.

    Many on the left are equally as appalled at how the far-left behaves.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,365 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    But by presenting it in a 'threats from the left' thread, it honestly looks like you do see it as menacing.

    Why else can we assume you're posting it?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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