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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Another $8 tweet dump no thanks. The waffle on Twitter is debunked by the fact a 14 year old committed suicide. It’s happening. Their denials based on “studies” do not apply, there is dead bodies now period.

    “Do you approve” of the 14 year old committing suicide? /s



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sorry but you simply cannot casually dismiss systematic reviews with a shrug of the shoulder and a sarcastic reference to Twitter rates -- just because those reviews just happen to disagree with the assertions you would rather believe instead.

    And the question you asked at the bottom of that post is quite frankly disgusting.

    Earlier to another poster you said this:

    Conjecture. Provide evidence.

    This is ironic on two fronts; first, because you are similarly offering conjecture without evidence and, second to that, when evidence is supplied (systematic reviews) against your position, you casually dismiss the evidence as if it didn't exist.

    There is absolutely no credibility with the points you have tried to make, none.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Sorry you simply cannot casually dismiss a 14 year old committing suicide with a shrug of the shoulder and sarcastic reference to tweetdumps. Just because those tweetdumps disagree with the SUICIDES you would rather blithely ignore instead.

    You asked other users if they approve of things are we not allowed to?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    One of Finland's leading psychiatrists disagrees with you.

    It is reckless and irresponsible to push the false narrative that the choice is gender-affirming care or suicide.

    I would suggest reading this account before spreading more misinformation that only harms youth by telling them that this is the only choice they have.

    Trans activists who continue to push this narrative are actively harming children and young adults, all because their ideology is what matters. It's quite frankly disgusting.




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Finnish $8/mo psychiatric waffle (appeal to authority fallacy) doesn’t obviate the suicide of a 14 year old over denied access to healthcare. It’s disgusting to downplay their death. Children are actively being harmed and you’re trying to say “nuh uh”

    does trans kids killing themselves from denied care get a free pass on this thread?



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Okay.

    It's abundantly clear that you have no interest in evidence and are arguing in bad faith.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    It's clear YOU have no interest in evidence:

    They aren't a **** statistic in Finnish academia.

    Speaking of bad faith and academia, are you gonna stand behind your school curriculum accusations? No. You're not. Nor will you simply admit you erred and your "concerns" were vapid nonsense. You have no interest in engaging in good faith.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    You have no interest in engaging in good faith.

    Amazing, truly amazing. You can be accused of many, many things, but engaging in good faith is not one of them

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Pithy isn't it. Can you be specific, ie. in Good Faith with your claim.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    you have no interest in evidence 

    Tweets are not evidence of anything except a tweet.

    Twitter is unverifiable. Users can pay $8/mo to functionally pretend to be anyone. You can even edit tweets ex post facto, so they are not a matter of dependable record. It has many of the same (and some additional different) credibility issues to Wikipedia. It is a dead platform, sorry, and if you're going to link to it I encourage screenshots for static recordkeeping (and Twitter would really appreciate the lessened strain on their server, the company is deeply in the red).

    Tablet Magazine is not a reliable or objective source:

    Per the article in the Tweet:

    "A previous version of this article gave the wrong percentage, 75%, of Finnish pediatric patients presenting for gender identity services who had a history of severe psychopathology prior to the emergence of their gender-related distress. The correct figure is 68%."

    It didn't even get written based on correct information, and any neutral observer can determine the piece is opinionated and slanted: "Unlike American doctors who dare question “gender affirmative” orthodoxies, Kaltiala has the backing of professional medical groups in her country. " etc.

    You say I don't care about evidence and engage in bad faith. I say I have not seen any of your supposed evidence, and are waiting for you to provide any. Are you going to say anything about Noah O'Brien, under your "Free Pass on thread" sentiment? Are you going to concede your "concern" about the school curriculum under the "good faith" standard?



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Me - In all fairness, there's a,difference between criticism ans scaremongering and link-dumping extremists is not criticism.

    You - why is any criticism of the left automatically labeled as scaremongering?

    --

    Pretty obvious I made a distinction and that NOT all criticism is labeled as such. Read the posts in future.

    Also, I'm talking about one specific poster - NOT every critique of the left. That's also pretty obvious.

    Are you accidentally isreading my posts or is it intenitonal?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Bullshit and more scarmongering.

    Poster - when the people who claim to support them keep telling them it's this, or suicide, no other options.

    You - here's a doctor who made a diganosis: he's told the kid NOTHING before he started (and if he did, he should be struck off).

    ---

    You don't know the difference between an activist who said "either you're trans or you're suicidal!" and a doctor who made a disagnosis.

    So more scaremongering bullshit. Note to @nullzero - no, this is not representative of left-wig criticism and yes it is possible to criticism left-wing pjilosophy without scaremongering, this is just in relation to the poster I quoted. He clerly is not capable of it and this is the latest item of evidence in a long line of anti-left bigoted transphobic posts which, I accept, are viewpoints of said poster ALONE.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Just to add: this is NOT a specific item, it's extremely general.

    Beyond that, again, it's th eviewpoints of ONE POSTER that I am saying is scaremongering. Four times, now, I;ve had to say it; can we accept that, even if you disagree with me, you do realsie I'm talking about ONE POSTER?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,997 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    Nobody here is arguing that there aren't young people who identify as trans who have killed themselves, with the reason given that they were denied gender affirming care.

    What we are arguing is that there'd be less of them, if the narrative of gender affirming care or death, wasn't pushed so hard.

    But feel free to go on a bizarre tirade, dismissing everything that doesn't support your position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    the narrative of gender affirming care or death

    I am not familiar with this one, except in the categorical case of one Montana Republican lawmaker and mother, for example, who used her floor time to put on the record for all Montana to know for now and forever that she'd rather watch her child commit suicide than to transition:

    Is this what you meant or can "we" get more specific please.

    "One of the big issues that we have heard today and we've talked about lately is that without surgery the risk of suicide goes way up. Well, I am one of those parents who lived with a daughter who was suicidal for three years," Seekins-Crowe said. "Someone once asked me, 'Wouldn't I just do anything to help save her?' And I really had to think and the answer was, 'No.'"

    "I was not going to give in to her emotional manipulation because she was incapable of making those decisions and I had to make those decisions for her," she added.

    Seekins-Crowe continued, "I was not going to let her tear apart my family and I was not going to let her tear apart me because I had to be strong for her, I had to have a vision for her life when she had none, was incapable of having none."

    Seekins-Crowe also said that she "spent hours on the floor in prayer because I didn't know that when I woke up if my daughter was going to be alive or not. But I knew that I had to make those right decisions for her so that she would have a precious, successful adulthood at that time."

    I have good faith in facts, not God, personally.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    The term "scaremongering" does get used a lot on this thread. You have as you said, had occasion to use it yourself, and without scouring the thread for all instances of you using it, I have had occasion to feel it was used unfairly.

    Just to note, you're not the only person using that phrase and I'm not attempting to single you out here.

    I'm not citing specific examples here, rather just making an observation about something that has been a constant element of the thread and should perhaps be curtailed.

    Glazers Out!



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    I have had occasion to feel it was used unfairly.

    To be honest, it's very possible I'm guilty of it, too - but not in this case.

    I'd just like to be able to debate leftwing concerns without it being farleft. We all know the far left are assholes, so why debate?

    Posting far left activism and using as validation of transphobia is disgusting - and I say this as someone who has seen first hand the pain it causes to the community. That's why I call it out.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Fine, let's go through this.

    Tweets are not evidence of anything except a tweet.

    Nobody claimed that "Tweets" are evidence. But what those Tweets link to may very well be evidence -- and that's what was linked, evidence regarding the latest systematic reviews, conducted by healthcare professionals and researchers, who have overwhelmingly come to the conclusion that "gender affirming care" is not based upon the best available evidence, and that the affirm-or-suicide narrative is "purposeful disinformation" and its promotion (given the contagious nature of suicide) "irresponsible."

    Systematic reviews are not Tweets, but some Tweets may link to systematic reviews and the assessments of healthcare professionals. All the latest evidence to date -- by medical professionals -- says you are wrong.

    References to "$8 tweets" is next to nothing in comparison, and is rather a derisory attempt at dismissal.

    It didn't even get written based on correct information, and any neutral observer can determine the piece is opinionated and slanted.

    The truth doesn't care about "slant". That's your interpretation and bias as applied to the best available evidence.

    Evidence stands on its own merits.

    Second, it's a logical fallacy not worthy of the name to say that because a statistic was initially inaccurately published (and then subsequently corrected), that the entire piece is incorrect. That's not how research works.

    It's not how medical professionals come to conclusions about healthcare; it's logically fallacious, unworthy of any serious consideration.

    Are you going to say anything about Noah O'Brien, under your "Free Pass on thread" sentiment?

    Yes, I will.

    Suicide is a complex situation. Many people who believe they are trans may very well go through the process of affirmation surgery, but who are nonetheless suicidal afterwards. There are many other underlying factors that can feed into that person's decision making (whether they are trans or not). Often very complex, deeply rooted factors and personal history that don't have a simplistic interpretation. I am in no position to comment on that child, their history, and their experiences to date; to weaponize their death as evidence in favour of some broad, ideological point. You have clearly taken a different position.

    You appear to know all there is to know to justify the conclusion you always wanted to draw to begin with.

    But when it comes to the actual evidence base, my trust is with medical professionals and researchers who know far more about this matter than you or me. And no, we're not talking about some random study from 5-years ago, but actual systematic reviews that assess the trend of accuracy. They have concluded that gender affirming care is not based upon the best available evidence. If we are to care about children and teenagers, then I would expect anyone to side with medical professionals on this matter. Not opinions of random, anecdotal cases -- but actual well-researched evidence.

    Furthermore, we have already seen what happened with the Tavistock Clinic and Mermaids, both of which had to be investigated and/or closed. More and more European countries, first in line when it came to gender affirmation therapy -- such as some Scandinavian countries and Finland -- have now re-assessed their position on the matter. That's worth listening to too, I would have thought?

    But apparently you know better. That's pretty convenient, isn't it?

    Throughout this thread, you have consistently spread misinformation. You've used a whole mosaic of techniques -- ranging from deflection and whataboutery to the empty repetition of slogans, dismissal of actual evidence, and often just sarcastic responses or engaging in bad faith. No real regard for evidence. None; instead, you blithely dismiss any evidence with sarcasm. Evidence against your position is considered an occasional inconvenience, except of course when the evidence just happens to agree with your position. Then, it matters.

    I won't engage at this length in any further posts. But I thought it important to make at least one example out of the disingenuous way you respond to other posters on this matter. And it's no different from far-left agitators, who similarly have little to no regard for the actual evidence base -- even when many children and young adults have been harmed in the process. Shame on them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    But apparently you know better. That's pretty convenient, isn't it?

    Before I engage with any of your post, where did I assert something so hyperbolic and banal?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    No, I was asking if there was any evidence to the claim that non-suicidal kids were given the idea that it was most likely going to be suicide or trans, and if so, what kind of scale are we talking?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,730 ✭✭✭✭nullzero
    °°°°°


    Being critical of trans lobby groups doesn't equate to being transpbobic.

    The baby keeps getting thrown out with the bathwater in almost every discussion on this thread.

    I can be critical of some trans activists without being transpbobic.

    I can take issue with trans lobby groups insisting that treatments that have not been properly trialed be made available to anyone who wants them at any age without being transpbobic.

    The doctors I've heard interviewed on Irish radio in recent months who have stated that trans lobby groups are having an adverse effect on the treatment of trans people who themselves work exclusively with trans people aren't transpbobic for criticising trans lobby groups.

    Maybe I should acuse you of scaremongering for calling people transpbobic who aren't?

    Glazers Out!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The trans-woman (Sarah Jane Baker) who advocated that women (TERFs) should be "punched in the face" at Trans Pride London, is being defended by some trans organisations (to "support a trans woman victimised...).

    In this case, a trans organisation called "Sisters Uncut" are asking its followers to defend the person who made violent threats against women.

    This is what far-left extremism looks like, whether people want to see it or not.




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    That account doesn't even bother paying $8/mo for the Twitter. How are we to know LibsOfTikTok or Elon Musk don't alt on that account?

    Are you going to answer my question in my last post.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That account doesn't even bother paying $8/mo for the Twitter

    No, and this is my last response to you.

    Utterly disingenuous.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Alright then. You've said so much without evidence, and it is dismissed without evidence. It really undermines the apparent credibly of your attacks against me (eg. that somehow I am disingenuous for applying a standard for evidence). You can't even bring yourself to provide evidence for such a low level charge. If you won't defend your words don't write them, I would suggest.

    All you have are tweets, it's low quality hot garbage, twitter is a dead platform. Try something else. You speak about fallacies but are doing appeal to authority fallacy. May I suggest stop doomscrolling Twitter.

    Second, it's a logical fallacy not worthy of the name to say that because a statistic was initially inaccurately published (and then subsequently corrected), that the entire piece is incorrect. That's not how research works.

    I've pierced the alleged credibiliy of your source to be accurate, reliable even, regardless of slant, it is up to you to redefine what parts of the article, in particular, you are prepared to defend: What is the danger to the public, Gender Affirming Care? Or the alleged Twitter narrative (again, I beseech people to get off that cesspool) that it is 'only either Suicide or Transition' (false dichotomy fallacy)??

    You posted a big rager that I don't consider evidence but you have still gone completely mum about that school curriculum, after I went to the trouble of treating your claim with the good faith it deserves and pulled up the curriculum and posted it to thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33 notnattynate


    ""All you have are tweets, it's low quality hot garbage, twitter is a dead platform ""

    I just checked and twitter is still there?



  • Registered Users Posts: 473 ✭✭Ramasun


    The whole Left or Right thing is confusing.

    If Jeremy Corbyn is your type of politician in the UK everyone else is to the right.

    If Donald Trump is your type, anywhere, everyone else is on the left.

    Where is the middle point in Ireland so I know where I am?



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Depends when you check

    unclear how long platform can operate without paying its ISP and overhead bills. Nevermind the central issue, the problem of credibility when even the CEO is provably operating sock puppet accounts. There is no meaningful standard of reliability anymore regarding information on Twitter or who is who.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Being critical of trans lobby groups doesn't equate to being transpbobic.

    Yeah, I know this - why? We've been over this.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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