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Railway electrification

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    I would have made your penultimate comment about the Dublin to Belfast line to be frank. The Cork line would be a much better prospect, especially should Limerick be included. Even so, I doubt a case could be made for the massive investment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Can I ask where other European countries got the money/will to electrify virtually their ENTIRE systems? Not all are richer or more densely populated than us. Case in point, I remember taking the train from Vilamoura to Lisbon in Portugal around 2002/3. It looked like new 25 kV electrification, with loco hauled coaches, on beautifully maintained track. AFAIR there are only a few trains a day! And Portugal is a much poorer country than Ireland...

    Look at Poland. They're still a poor enough country but have fully electrified their old soviet era network. EU moolah...
    Since Poland's entry into the European Union in 2004, major financing has been made available by European financing institutions to improve both the Polish rail network and the rolling stock fleet. Up to June 2014, the European Investment Bank had provided loans totaling €1.9 billion for rail modernization projects in Poland.[1][2] An additional €578 million had been provided through December 2013 to modernize 70 percent of PKP Intercity rolling stock.[3] The €665 million purchase of twenty Alstom Pendolino high speed trains delivered in 2014 was financed in part by €342 million from the European Investment Bank.[4]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    ED E wrote: »
    Look at Poland. They're still a poor enough country but have fully electrified their old soviet era network. EU moolah...

    Poland had large reserves of coal, which was used to generate electricity. By using elecric traction, Poland avoided importing much oil.

    Most of Poland's rail electrification was in the 1960s, directly replacing steam.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    I would have made your penultimate comment about the Dublin to Belfast line to be frank. The Cork line would be a much better prospect, especially should Limerick be included. Even so, I doubt a case could be made for the massive investment.

    The major difference between the GSWR and GNR mainlines is that the GNR route has major towns throughout it's length, and commuter traffic at each end.
    Combined with electrification to Bangor and Larne, substantial efficiencies would result.
    The Cork line is almost devoid of major towns, only Sallins / Naas being of any consequence. I do support electrification to Hazelhatch, perhaps Newbridge or Kildare, but as a commuter facility.

    The problem with the GSWR route is that to justify electrifying the mainline, it would be necessary to have electric trains running to & from Waterford, Galway, Mayo, Limerick and Kerry. This is not viable.

    The alternative might be electro - diesel trains , as are planned for Great Western services in England, but really diesel trains can cope well with the gentle curves across the midlands, in contrast to the tortuous route crossing the border.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    no major towns? I think it does. Towns that are railheads for major swathes of countryside too.

    Commuter traffic at both ends? Well Cork and Dublin both have suburban networks that would benefit from development.

    I'm afraid I disagree with you. Possibly because I live in Cork, I suspect you live somewhere north of Dublin.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    tabbey wrote: »
    Most importantly the route needs to be protected from lineside development, to allow for future rail expansion.

    I'm afraid the horse as bolted on that one. The Belfast line is already densely developed at the Dublin end. If we're 4 tracking, the extra 2 tracks will have to be built inland, west of the M1, through Dublin airport and in a tunnel to Liffey junction and on to Heuston via the Phoenix Park Tunnel. The coastal line can then be handed over to a 5 minute frequent DART.
    tabbey wrote: »
    As for other mainline routes, forget it, unless there is a massive increase in population, traffic levels could not sustain the capital investment.

    The Dublin Belfast line has lower patronage than Dublin-Galway. Dublin Cork is by miles the busiest long distance rail and road route.
    tabbey wrote: »
    Also be thankful we still can enjoy a railway network largely unspoilt by overhead wiring and structures.

    Oh come off it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭tabbey


    [QUOTE=savagethegoat;99017892

    I'm afraid I disagree with you. Possibly because I live in Cork, I suspect you live somewhere north of Dublin.[/QUOTE]

    Apologies to all residents & natives of the real capital and the rebel county.
    You are quite right about intermediate stations being railheads for their catchment areas, but I do not think the population justifies electrification for the foreseeable future.
    The belfast line, on the other hand, offers the potential for traffic growth, if an adequate service was provided, not just for city to city, but for Skerries to Newry and Dundalk to Lisburn. The present operation cannot compete with the motorway, for geographical and operational reasons.

    As for my abode, you are close, but not quite right. I can perfectly understand your suspicion.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    tabbey wrote: »
    The major difference between the GSWR and GNR mainlines is that the GNR route has major towns throughout it's length, and commuter traffic at each end.
    Combined with electrification to Bangor and Larne, substantial efficiencies would result.
    The Cork line is almost devoid of major towns, only Sallins / Naas being of any consequence. I do support electrification to Hazelhatch, perhaps Newbridge or Kildare, but as a commuter facility.

    ???
    You do realise that the Cork Line also carries everyone travelling from Dublin to Limerick and Kerry also. And that you have commuter services from Mallow into Cork.

    Either way simply looking at populations is not material. Cork and Dublin have greater passenger numbers between them because their economies are interlinked, being part of the same country and all. Northern Ireland's workforce are mostly civil servants and the vast majority of people employed are directly or indirectly employed by the British state meaning that they have no need to travel for business, so you are talking mostly leisure passengers cross border.
    tabbey wrote: »
    The problem with the GSWR route is that to justify electrifying the mainline, it would be necessary to have electric trains running to & from Waterford, Galway, Mayo, Limerick and Kerry. This is not viable.

    No it wouldn't you can have diesel trains running on electrified lines as we currently have with the DART.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    cgcsb wrote: »
    No it wouldn't you can have diesel trains running on electrified lines as we currently have with the DART.

    Or even better still dual diesel electric trains


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3 Figel2


    Before the network can be electrified fully several things need to happen first Dart Underground needs to be built and then electrification can be expanded .It is the centre of the Irish rail net .

    For total electrification a tunnel or bridge needs to be built to Whales (EU desire )


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,771 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Figel2 wrote: »
    Before the network can be electrified fully several things need to happen first Dart Underground needs to be built and then electrification can be expanded .It is the centre of the Irish rail net .

    For total electrification a tunnel or bridge needs to be built to Whales (EU desire )

    That would be an excuse which IE would use. There is no reason why Cork/Belfast couldn't be done.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,730 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Figel2 wrote: »
    Before the network can be electrified fully several things need to happen first Dart Underground needs to be built and then electrification can be expanded .It is the centre of the Irish rail net .

    For total electrification a tunnel or bridge needs to be built to Whales (EU desire )

    Neither of these are required to start or even totally complete electrification


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Figel2 wrote: »
    Before the network can be electrified fully several things need to happen first Dart Underground needs to be built and then electrification can be expanded .It is the centre of the Irish rail net .

    For total electrification a tunnel or bridge needs to be built to Whales (EU desire )

    as to why we would want to see whales by train I cant fathom, personally I think dolphins are friendlier


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    That would be an excuse which IE would use. There is no reason why Cork/Belfast couldn't be done.

    I see no point in a partial electrification , what advantages would it give over current diesel operation ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭A1ACo


    A National Rail Electrification (continual/rolling) Programme?

    It was posted in the Dart+ (DART Expansion) chat e.g. page 298, and somewhere a link to a recent Irish Rail presentation, that the current Irish Rail Implementation Programme for rail projects included below for electrification: 

    2030:

    DART+ 1.5kv DC - Heuston & Connolly to Hazelhatch/Celbridge station (South West (Cork/ Limerick) route)

                1.5kv DC - Connolly to Maynooth & M3 Parkway stations (West (Sligo) route)

                1.5kv DC - Malahide to Drogheda station (Coastal North (Belfast) route)

    2040:

    ‘Electrification Cork-Dublin-Belfast and Limerick’

    [continuation of DART+ routes – South West, and Coastal North - but at 25kv AC]


    2050:

    ‘Electrification of Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Waterford’

    [further cont. of DART+ route – South West]

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    However, some previous discussions on these boards in the last few years, e.g. Enterprise Refurbishment (intercity Belfast route upgrades), and electrification of Irish rail, have opined that;

    while the idea of electrification of Intercity services from Dublin to Belfast, and Cork were nice ideas…

    – That in terms of Road Traffic congestion relief, and lowering pollution, and passenger numbers –

    ….That Electrification of Suburban Rail services into the Cities should probably take priority…


    In this stream, an alternative/ alteration - to the above Implementation Programme - for electrification could be argued as below? (to include refurbed (to 25kv AC?) original 8100s DARTs (instead of their scrapping) and - as insurance in case of any teething/ serious teething of new DART fleets):-

    Alternative:

    2030:

    DART+ 1.5kv DC - Heuston & Connolly to Hazelhatch/Celbridge station (South West (Cork/ Limerick) route)

                1.5kv DC - Connolly to Maynooth & M3 Parkway stations (West (Sligo) route)

                1.5kv DC - Malahide to Drogheda station (Coastal North (Belfast) route)


    Electrification- City Shuttles (using refurbishes DART 8100s as suburban shuttles)

               Cork Suburban

                        Galway to Athenry

               Waterford to Kilkenny

                            Limerick to Nenagh

                           Athlone to Tullamore

                           Greystones to Wicklow

                           Drogheda to Dundalk

    & Before...2040: 

    Fill-in blanks of City Shuttles along ‘Electrification Cork-Dublin-Belfast and Limerick’

    [continuation of DART+ routes – South West, and Coastal North - but at 25kv AC]

    2050:

    Fill-in blanks of City Shuttles along ‘Electrification of Dublin to Galway and Dublin to Waterford’

    [further cont. of DART+ route – South West]

     & then Fill-in blank to Belfast (Newry only?…) 

    Plenty of scope for argument?!

    Post edited by A1ACo on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,748 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    What's the advantage of doing the main lines at  25kv AC, rather than 1.5kv DC, given the size of the island.

    Would it not make sense to have the entire country on the same standard..



  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭DoctorPan


    1.5 DC is more expensive and is a legacy issue that intended to phased (heh) out over the lifetime of the new rolling stock.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,892 ✭✭✭Economics101


    It's apparently even more than that. 1.5 DC is especially unsuited for long-distance intercity as you need much more substations to feed in the power. It's notable that many countries which started out with DC have had most of their recent electrification projusts us 25Kv AC.

    Dual-voltage electric motive power is no big deal these days: loads of places seem to do it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,892 ✭✭✭Economics101


    There is a leaked Irish Times report of what the Strategic all-Ireland Rail Review will contain. Plenty of nonsence about rialways to Donegal and a Ballina-Rosslare rail "spine". Not a dickeybird in the IT report about electrification.

    Either hopeless journalism or a rubbish rail review: take your pick.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,971 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Struggling to think of the high freight volumes that travel Rosslare to Ballina that would justify this - let's hope the EU don't spend a penny on this and leave it to the govt to justify to their own taxpayers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,229 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    there doesn't need to be freight specifically between the exact 2 destinations.

    rather the spine allows for multiple different journey destinations for passengers and freight without going through the congested dublin and kildare areas.

    rosslare to belfast or to sligo is effectively a spine even though there are no direct services between the 2.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,789 ✭✭✭cgcsb


    I would say the IT is just plucking at 'sexy' parts of the report. The readers don't care about double tracking, electrification, journey time reductions etc.

    But would agree, any report mentioning the 2 in same breath is toilet paper. The wrc should be in an aspirational final chapter only.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,892 ✭✭✭Economics101


    I may have given the wrong impression: my real beef whas that the "report" as leaked does not seem to mention electrification. Electrification should be a system-wide issue for the long-term. Given that we are beien made electrify our cars, you might think that the topic would be given due prominence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 135 ✭✭DoctorPan


    Ballina to Waterford is already an established and busy flows. Foynes is coming on stream soon so very easy to justify it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭A1ACo


    It would seem interesting if there is not much in the report about electrification, in that if introducing more public transport is a first step towards 'decarbonisation', then a second step would be decarbonising public transport itself i.e. moving away from diesel trains, and towards electric trains (and hopefully overall not overloaded with batteries regards parts of trips with no electric wires overhead e.g. the future DART+ trains).

    The previous chats\ forums noted above discuss 25kv AC as the modern standard for new lines - though noting that any new rail lines in Europe\the world are almost inevitably high-speed lines, and long distance, where the most power possible is needed, and less substations would be a benefit...

    Also, in Europe anyway, a good few of these lines would also be linking into other countries high-speed lines also of 25kv AC.

    That been said, for all the noise about new (high-speed network) lines being 25kv AC, a very large proportion of Europe's main lines, including 'classic' original 'higher' speed lines e.g. 200kph up to 250kph maximum potential speed lines e.g. Spain and Italy, are electrifed at 3kv DC (and not to mention, Germany, etc. At 15kv AC). These interesting large proportions of non-25kv AC lines can be seen for example, on the European Railway Server list of railways.

    The previous forums also mentioned that the original 1970s/80s pre-DART study had ruled out 25kv AC for DART, due to wire clearance/ arc issues, and 3kv DC for some technical query issue, and that 1.5kv DC was the compromise.

    The c.2019 pre-DART+ electrification study mentioned same re 25kv AC, but appeared to quickly dismiss 3kv DC and noted it as planned to be replaced in (smaller, ex-soviet) countries with 25kv ac, but did not seem to mention if it had clearance\ arc issues too, or any benefits it might have.

    Not sure if 15kv AC was mentioned as having any benefits/ less clearance\ arc issues (notwithstanding 15kv AC, like 25kv AC, also is a different type of electrification, with need for transformers on board trains, making them heavier, and apparent other hurdles in terms of insulating trackside equipment, and the national/ local electrical (ESB) network).



  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭A1ACo


    Anyway, electrification - whether at 1.5kv and/ or 3kv DC systems (note - the Netherlands 'Prorail' infrastructure group seems to promote the idea of converting it's mostly 1.5kv DC system to 3kv DC for various reasons - including cost wise instead of to 25kv AC), and twinned with 25kv AC on long- distance/ higher speed parts of the Irish system, as is common in western European countries, should probably have a fair deal of prominence in any report, regards decarbonisation, and more viable commuter/ urban rail services.

    Note also, there seem to have been some instances in Europe of trains either 'stepping down' their 3kv DC power, to 1.5kv DC in the past, or switching over in more modern controlled trains, e.g. in Italian trains, when crossing different systems/ countries.

    Also, if intercity services are planned long-term, to be electrified in Ireland anyway - then for the benefit of both earlier decentralisation, and decarbonisation of the nation - the seeding other cities and towns in the country with their own 'DARTS' (shuttles) along those routes may be of help, and could help promote growth and passenger numbers on those lines, for the future inter-city services ... and could tie into more long-distance versions of the planned DART+ trains with part electric line and part battery operation... This been a stepping stone approach to all of the above.

    Noting also, that the population density would not be great along those city/town environs lines but, to is could also be a case for 'Build it and they will come'.

    I'll finally note that, for another electrification example, besides been mostly electrified at 3kv DC - Belgium seems to be in the last 5 years, extending a small number of its less busy lines with continued 3kv DC, but has also changed over a seemingly busier 3kv DC line, into 25kv AC, via some innovative process.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,892 ✭✭✭Economics101


    You give some interesting examples of different electrification systems. Here is another, with obvious parallels to Ireland. Portugal electrified part of the Lisbon suburban network (The Lisbon-Cascais line) at 1.5kv DC in the 1920s. When they started system-wide electrification post WW2 they decided on 25Kv AC for all new heavy rail projects.

    Now, given that the Cascais line rolling stock and lineside electrical equipment needs replacement they have decided to convert it to 25Kv AC. They seem to feel that even for a DART-like suburban line that this is the best choice. I'm not an electrical engineer, but from what I have read, 25Kv AC is definitely best for longer distances. It seems to work well enough in the UK suburban networks as well. (excluding the Southern, of course)

    Should be some fun in managing this change on a busy suburban line.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,220 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    The Irish Rail plans are for 25kV Hazelhatch-Cork/Limerick/Galway/Waterford + Drogheda - Belfast

    The DRRTS study ruled out 25kV. Construction costs. Weight of carrying a transformer around impacting on purchase cost and also running costs (more weight needs more power). 3000V DC was never discussed, only 750/150025kV. DRRTS is somewhat influenced by the Tyne & Wear Metro plans

    Dual voltage 1500+25kV is the easiest config to build, its the most common dual voltage combination



  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭A1ACo


    For reference, the 2019 report was the - 'DART Expansion rail electrification assessment of 08/04/2019, and it also noted that the preference of a - 2011 - 'GDA rail electrification network study' was for 1.5kv DC for DART network expansion. I didn't see in passing, any particular reference to the DRRTS ( Dublin rail rapid transit study) of 1975.

    Some of the Netherlands studies re 1.5kv DC into 3kv DC reports include : thesis that was '...a joint assignment of ProRail and Delft University of Technology' in 2017 -

    'The Contribution of 3kv DC traction power supply system to railway capacity in the Netherlands' by DCL Reijnen, and

    ...with one of the thesis advisors and assessors (Zoeteman, A.) also a colleague of Reijnen, from ProRail, seeming to be one of the authors of journal articles 2014 '-

    'Analysis of the business case for introducing a 3kv traction power supply in Dutch railways' (WIT Press),

    and noting a similar 3kv DC conversion article in 2013, and another similar article/study in 2017 - for ProRail and NS (See the bibliography of the above thesis for a fuller list and details) on introduction of conversion from NS/ ProRail's 1.5kv DC system into 3kv DC.

    Post edited by A1ACo on


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  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭A1ACo


    The above 2019 report also mentioned I think, a 2015 study for a fairly unique (for Spain) urban standard guage and 1.5kv DC line for Barcelona to Valle's, and it's potential conversion, into 25kv AC,.. interesting in a country of generally of 3kv DC and broad guage for classic/ urban lines etc. - though I don't see any quick reference online to that line been converted or not since 2015.

    The Dutch thesis I think noted a stated 40% operational energy saving, with 25kv AC, over the NS existing 1.5kv DC Main line system..

    I'm going to note a comparison then to the also noted Netherlands studies, and ProRail website, stating a forecast 20% operational energy saving with 3kv DC, over existing their existing 1.5kv DC.

    The Netherlands thesis also mentioned a modeled 'smoother' acceleration on a line with a difficult gradient, with 3kv DC, as opposed to with existing 1.5kv DC - this could for example, point to some utility for 3kv DC on the Irish Rail gradient etc on the northern line towards the border?

    It also noted that a Lloyds document listed as 30% greater traction effort with 3kv DC, versus 1.5kv DC, and that this could be investigated with existing stock and conversion of same to 3kv DC for testing.

    The 2019 Irish report contains a number of interesting and informative checks and balances, and comparisons regards 1.5kv DC Vs. full 25kv AC conversion, or part use etc.

    It would be interesting (I think!)... to see 3kv DC comparisons to be inserted into the report... and maybe to see if recent energy inflation has changed any of the calculations - Notwithstanding -

    ...the overarching conclusion of the 2019 report - for the GDA anyway, was that the long term savings of 25 kv AC - did not overcome the short, and medium term, capital, and other costs of part, or all system conversion and use in new parts of the system with 25 kv AC versus just keeping 1.5kv DC in the existing system and extending 1.5kv to be system.

    Post edited by A1ACo on


  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭A1ACo


    Other Netherland’s thesis, and documents, for possible NS railway electrical conversion include e.g.

    ‘Operational Transitions in Railway Infrastructure’

    (Maurits De Hek, 2021) – submitted to/ with Technological University Delft, and ProRail, and other articles e.g. from 2016/ 2018, that advocated/ studied for NS & ProRail, conversion of the Netherlands rail electrical system from 1.5kv DC, into 3kv DC. 

    The thesis contained some of the points below: -

    Belgian electrical current for its 3kv DC system, is 2500 amperes (Amp.), so its maximum electrical power available to trains is 7.5MW.

    The Italian electrical current for its 3kv DC system, is 4000 amperes (Amp.), so its maximum electrical power available to trains is a higher 12MW.

    It was also stated, that the Netherlands electrical current for its 1.5kv DC system, is 4000 amperes (Amp.), so its maximum electrical power to its trains is 6MW (half the Italian power).

     

    Does anyone know for comparison, what Irish Rail’s electrical current for its 1.5kv DC system, is in amperes (Amp.), and its maximum electrical power to trains?

     

    It was also noted, that to use the Netherland’s 1.5kv ‘Sprinter Lighttrains’ (Bombardier and Siemens), at 3kv DC, that a - ‘down Chopper’ - has to be installed, to convert 3kv DC, into 1200v-1950v, so that a Sprinter Light Train, with 10 carriages...

    - would have 30% more power at 3kv DC - than with its current 1.5kv DC feed.  

    Otherwise note, that the information provided in the Irish Rail Questionnaire, to prospective tenderers for a 8100 series DARTs - Extended Operation Review/extended lifespan recommendations - earlier this year, stated that the 2006-2008 refurbishment of the 8100 Class DARTs, had included:

    In addition, the original GEC Alsthom traction equipment was completely replaced with a modern Siemens Chopper control traction system. Window frames….

     

    (according to that questionnaire the contract award/ issue of notifications was June, 2023 – also does anyone know if any tenders were received/ contracts given for the review?)



  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭A1ACo


    These Netherlands documents studying a 1.5kv DC, into 3kv DC switch, estimated a 20% reduction in energy usage – provided that…

    amperes (AMP.) remained at 4000 amperes (AMP.) 

    -       so doubling the 6MW power at 1.5kv DC - up to 12MW power - under 3kv DC.

     

    The documents indicate that the switch would take 7-10 years (perhaps regards the large number circa 234 rail substations in Netherlands? vs. c.13 existing for Irish Rail?) - with clusters of substations converted at the same time.

    They also state that a conversion approach could include all trains, and substations, modified to bi-current systems, so that trains operate during conversion, and drive under both power systems, and with additional Transformers i think to be added to substations for the conversion.

    Further noted, were the possibility of using more powered axles on trains, via the discussed potential conversion.

     

    On a separate note, in Spain there were recent EU supported projects, to add to existing 3kv DC substations, to allow for better recovery of braking energy i.e. Regenerative Braking – these additions were not cheap, but were estimated to have overall energy usage/ cost reductions.

    (other articles indicated that better levels of braking energy recovery possible with 3kv DC, than with 1.5kv DC).



  • Registered Users Posts: 62 ✭✭A1ACo


    RE: my message at no.83 above - does anyone know of any tender responses, and/ or further decisions, regarding the Irish Rail tender for a 8100 series DARTs - 'Extended Operation Review/extended lifespan' programme? The tender deadline is almost past exactly a year ago now this month.

    On a separate note - is it my imagination, or has DART catenary been recently upgraded with more sturdy looking replacements e.g. along southside line?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,338 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Parts have, there was a fairly major fault south of DL that kept occuring so I believe parts of the caternary were replaced.



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