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Life insurance for parent?

  • 15-07-2023 11:50pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭


    Hi

    So my mother recently passed away after battling cancer for past 3 years with no life insurance in place. One of my uncles also passed away and my other uncle was listed as his beneficiary. They basically each took out policies so that if one passed away the other would receive a payout on the policy.

    My Dad has suggested I take a policy on him which I understand I can't do as he would need to take it out in his own name. Does anybody know if I can set up direct debit for such a policy using my bank details?

    I want to ensure payment of the policy is been paid from my bank account.

    Also I assume if my Dad leaves me in his will as the full beneficiary then it would not be open to contest by any other family member?

    Post edited by Henry Ford III on


Comments

  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Can be done.

    Doesn't need to be part of his estate. Get professional advice though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭lightspeed


    Thanks I intend to and as it will be my Dad taking out the policy albeit with myself paying for I'd hope the life insurance company can advise what's required etc.

    I'm not following how it wouldn't have to be part of his estate?

    It's an item of cash value that us only paid out upon his death during the life of the policy so the payout is part of his estate is it not?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,613 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Why can you not take out an insurance policy on father's life? Is it because of the premia or his health condition?



  • Registered Users Posts: 889 ✭✭✭doc22


    What age is your dad around ? Have you looked up the cost, the pricing is vastly different taking out while young which your uncles prob did which is what you father thinks it'll cost. A 40 year term policy of a 30 year old is vastly different to a 20 year term policy for say a 60 year old. Your father would have to be medical reviewed too and likely won't cover for any existing conditions or premiums will be loaded for such condition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭lightspeed


    I rang chill.ie and they said that it must have been some years ago that my uncle tool out such policies as they changed the law dome years ago. I would assume by law you can't have a vested financial interest for the death of another person without their knowledge as this might encourage foul play.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭lightspeed


    He is 71 years old with no known health problems. He did have a heart attack back in 2006 but I mentioned this to guy when I rang chill.ie and he didn't think it would be an issue.

    I saw on bonkers.ie that some do it for period of 18 years and only Royal London do it for 19 years. Perhaps they are about the same and up to 90 with Royal London taking account of leap years I'm not sure.

    https://www.bonkers.ie/compare-life-insurance/your-results/

    I'm aware there will be some medical details required and perhaps heart attack back in 2006 will result in higher premium assuming they willing to insure him at all. The cost is coming in at €295.

    It would appear to me based on some life expectancy calculators that there about 25 to 30% chance of him living to 91. So not that I want my dad to pass away but with or without cover in place it's likely event to occur within policy term limit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    You can absolutely pay for the policy from your bank account, no problem there.

    However the funds will pass to the estate, not to you, so he'll need to be careful how his will is worded to ensure you get the payout (and even then it is not certain, if he has debts or claims from other beneficiaries).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,593 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Legally speaking, in order to insure yourself against a particular risk you need to have an "insurable interest" in that risk. So, I can insure my own home against the risk of fire because, if it does catch fire, I will suffer loss. But I can't insure your home against the risk of fire. At best, this is just me gambling — I am betting that your home will burn down. At worst, it give me an incentive to burn your home down. You can see why, as a society, we wouldn't think that encouraging insurance contracts of this kind was a good idea.

    When it comes to life insurance, everyone is assumed to have an insurable interest in their own life, and in the life of their spouse. Beyond that, you can only insure someone's life if their death would cause you (financial) loss. So you can insure the life of your business partner, for example, or of a key employee, or indeed of your employer, since the death of any of these people might adversely impact your earnings.

    So, question: what money will the OP lose if their father dies? Obviously there are costs associated with death - funeral, burial, that kind of thing. Plus, if there's a family business in which the father plays a key role, there might be an adverse impact on the business. But as the father is already 71 I am guessing he is retired. And, unless the father is very poor, his funeral etc expenses will be paid out of his estate; the OP won't have to pay them.

    So, it might be difficult for the OP to insure his father's life for more than a modest amount. Hence the suggestion that the father should insure his own life, which he can do because he automatically has an insurable interest in his own life. But the suggestion is that the OP would pay the premiums. If the insurers are, or become, aware of this, they may take the view that this is in substance a concealed attempt by the OP to insure the father's life without demonstrating an insurable interest, and they may disclaim the policy. So I would hesitate to do this.

    A point already made is that, if we're talking about a 19- or 20-year policy on a man aged 71, death within the term of the policy is odds-on, and the premium will be correspondingly high. Which means that the insurance may not be great value. OP says he was quoted a premium of €295/month. He doesn't say what level of cover that would give, but if he were to invest that amount every month for 20 years, and investment values grew at the rate of 3% a year, my back-of-the-envelope tot is that after twenty years he would have about €87,000, regardless of whether his father dies within the term or not. If he puts the same money into insurance premiums he will presumably get more than that if his father dies (but we don't know how much more) but, if his father is spared to the age of 91, which of course we all hope he will be, the OP will get nothing at all for twenty years of premiums.

    So, it comes back to insurable interest. What financial loss does the OP face if his father dies before reaching age 91? If there is no financial loss, why would the OP pay for insurance? Simply investing the same money looks like a more rational course of action.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    What are you trying to achieve?

    Even in an insurer agrees to write a policy on your father, they and their underwriters will write and price the policy in such a way that there is little chance that they will loose.



  • Registered Users Posts: 889 ✭✭✭doc22


    I'm imagine that any insurer will wonder why a widowed man would start a life policy at 71. After medicial review and they hear about heart attack they may not accept or load premium. Most 70 year olds are on some medication too with bloodpressure etc. Any pre exising condition whether known(if not disclosed) or not that causes death will allow the insurers to stop claim and keep premiums.

    For me life policies are a great idea(as seen with the uncles above-it's more likely that they took policies on their own lives rather than each other as in reality it has the same affect) but not at 70 and the 3k grand premium per year for me would be better spent on my parents while alife rather then an insignificant payout when their dead. Needless to say if you paid the same net amount into a pension you'd be better off- eveything being equal.

    I'd take what chill say with a pitch of salt they aren't the underwriters and they'd recieve a substantial commision on any policy-I think it's normally 1 year premiums so 3k in above case.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,480 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    My Dad has suggested I take a policy on him ...

    Why? Where is the logic or financial justification in talking out a life policy on your 71 year old father?

    Maybe if he was the head of the family business and had a big network of contacts on which the business depended then it might make sense but the OP makes no mention of a scenario along those lines.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭lightspeed


    He says he likes to know that I would get a decent lump sum and clear my mortgage if he was to pass.

    My dad has been retired since 2006 when he had his heart attack. There is no family business etc.

    I'm thinking there probably only 25 to 30% chance I wouldn't get paid out on the policy. I'm aware there is a risk I don't get any payout and would still of course hope my dad does live many years and past 91 even if he was happy to do so.

    I suppose looking at the calculators online made me think odds more in my favour than insurers. Its more likely than not that he will be around in 10 years time and I assume the insurance company happy to get this free use of capital in the period.

    We will need to get a full quote I suppose and see if my assumptions are correct.

    .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,593 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The odds are in the insurer's favour; they wouldn't write the policy if they weren't.

    Which means that, if you want to reduce your mortgage, the odds are that you will reduce it by more if you don't insure your father's life, and instead use the premium amounts (a) to invest, building up a lump sum which can be used to reduce your mortgage, or (b) to make extra mortgage payments, so reducing the balance (and the interest cost) over time.

    But there are no guarantees. You could insure your father's life tomorrow and he could drop dead the following day, so you clear your mortgage at the cost of one month's premium. On the other hand you could pay premiums for 20 years, at a total cost of €70k, and if your father survives to 91 you won't see a penny. By your own estimate, there's a 20-30% chance that you won't see a penny. That's quite a gamble, given the amount you intend to stake.

    Basically, insurance is the much riskier bet — it could work out very well for you; it could work out very badly. Putting the money directly into reducing your mortgage, without complicating the exercise by betting on your father's date of death, will yield a much more predictable return.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,480 ✭✭✭✭coylemj


    I suppose looking at the calculators online made me think odds more in my favour than insurers. Its more likely than not that he will be around in 10 years time and I assume the insurance company happy to get this free use of capital in the period.

    But you're not an actuary. In terms of your father's life expectancy, an insurer is going to take a more conservative view than you. And charge you accordingly.

    Your father's death will not occasion any financial hardship for you and you tell us you could use the money to pay off your mortgage. So what you are proposing is effectively a gamble. The life policy will only pay a profit (death benefit less the premiums you have paid) if your father dies early so you are potentially walking into a moral dilemma whereby the sooner your father dies, the quicker you get to clear your mortgage.

    I think it would be more prudent to spend the money by increasing your monthly mortgage payments.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Would you bet on your local amateur soccer club beating Argentina? If it were that simple everyone in the country would be talking out such polices and you'd have lots articles on how easy it is to get your hands on a payout. That fact that it is not happening should put you on notice. These people are the professionals and they are there to make sure companies don't write a policy with a 30% chance they'll loose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,013 ✭✭✭3DataModem


    The odds are very rarely never in your favour when it comes to Life Assurance.

    In this case, your father will have to answer health questions and be subjected to a health investigation that will set the 'odds' more or less correctly. Your dad - bless him - possibly feels a little bit guilty about a lack of inheritance and is trying to ameliorate that guilt, and also generally trying to think about the unpleasant inevitable.

    Perhaps reassure him that you are financially fine, that he has no obligations to you in that area, and encourage him to enjoy his golden years.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    I think people are not really understanding the role of life assurance here.

    It's not a question of odds. Neither is it a question of profit.

    Life assurance is a way of protecting against the financial consequences of a death.

    p.s. In this particular case it's unlikely that the OP's father is insurable.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 10,364 Mod ✭✭✭✭Jim2007


    Well at one point I did some work on this stuff with actuaries, loss adjusters and underwriters and it was all about probability and profitability. It was for one of the European RE insurance companies and it was about trying to reduce the losses on Irish policies where people and brokers were using various combinations of Irish names and addresses to double and more cover on various life type products.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    Selection against the office is a terminology I've read a few times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,593 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yup. The problem for life assurance companies is that you generally know more about your own health, genetic inheritance and lifestyle than they do. And if you reckon you are going die sooner rather than later, that's an incentive to take out life insurance for the benefit of your nearest and dearest. Conversely, if both your parents and all your grandparents lived to 105 and you yourself are in the pink, you're less motivated to take out life insurance.

    So, insurers reckon, in the class of people that insures their own life people, who are at elevated risk of dying are over-represented, and people who are at reduced risk of dying are under-represented. Some of the class are taking out insurance because they know they have a problem, and insurers are constantly trying to develop ways of identifying those people.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin


    I am confused. I am not seeing the "insurable interest"


    why would you need a pay out of money if your dad dies? (That is what life assurance is). What is your dad doing for you now financially that will be gone when he dies?


    What I would see is that there will be some costs associated with his death e.g. funeral costs. So I can only see an insurable interest of 20k or so...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,593 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The OP recognises the problem. One suggestion is that the policy would be effected by the OP's father on his own life. Of course he has an unlimited insurable interest in his own life, so no problem there. The problem is that the OP is also contemplating the idea that he would reimburse his father for the cost of the premiums, which would be problematic precisely because this would be an attempt to mislead the insurance company about who was really insuring the father's life.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,653 ✭✭✭✭amdublin



    But I still don't understand why the op is trying to take out cover i.e. to profit from his dads death. Like there is a difference between recognizing the problem versus there actually not being a problem i.e. there is no insurable reason for him to be taking out insurance on his father


    I guess my question is, why does he need insurance on his father? Where/how is going to be financially less well off if (when) his father dies? What is he trying to insure against? What is the financial impact for him when his father dies?


    Funeral costs? yes, I see no issue from an insurance co perspective, of him and his father putting in place a life insurance policy for a small amount (e.g. 20k), paid for by the son, to pay funeral costs when his father passes away.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 17,742 Mod ✭✭✭✭Henry Ford III


    There's a repeated and fundamental lack of understanding of life insurance here.

    Thread has also run its course, so I'm closing it



This discussion has been closed.
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