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World's hottest day since records began

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  • Registered Users Posts: 572 ✭✭✭GNWoodd


    Dairy , sheep meat , chicken and pork receive very little subsidies. Beef is only subsidised because the end consumer won’t pay the true cost.

    Not too many people eat or could stomach ten kgs of soya . World meat consumption is increasing and a larger fraction of that could be satisfied by producing it sustainably here in Ireland .We could benefit from our natural advantages like any sensible nation would.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,948 ✭✭✭Shoog


    So your not concerned about the massive pollution it causes. Do you think its a price worth paying ?

    How do you propose to address the water quality issue facing the state ?

    Are you angry that for short term gain the Government pushed farmers into this unsustainable stocking rate ?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    In fairness, talking about "sustainably" producing more of something that contributes to carbon emissions so we can make more money is exactly the wrong sort of approach to take.

    Yes, Irish beef is more sustainable than, say, Brazilian soy-fed beef. But that doesn't make it actually sustainable.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,441 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    not sure if true!

    In 2018 the average subsidy payments made up 74% of the family farm income of the average farm. Drilling deeper, the figures are more concerning, for cattle and sheep farms, where the payments were up to 158% of income.

    https://www.teagasc.ie/publications/2020/cap-provides-important-funds-for-irish-farms.php

    IIRC the average hill sheep farmer receives ~€18k in subsidies a year, with an average income of ~€14k a year. in short, if they put their feet up and stopped farming, they'd be ~€4k better off. and the impact on the amount of meat produced would probably be minimal. and sheep are not selective browsers. sheep farming on marginal land is probably ridiculously low hanging fruit in terms of change of land use.



  • Registered Users Posts: 572 ✭✭✭GNWoodd


    In Ireland more pollution is caused by human waste than animal waste. The number of water pollution prosecutions initiated by the local authorities over say the last five years show a lot more cases against Irish Water than individual farmers. If farmers are responsible for massive pollution why aren’t they being prosecuted in massive numbers ?

    Household water charges should have been implemented as originally proposed and the funds used to upgrade the waste water treatment plants .

    Stocking rates are controlled by individual farmers not by the Government. Yes Teagasc made bad policy decisions but at the end of the day individual farmers can reduce stocking rates just as easily as they were increased.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,948 ✭✭✭Shoog


    It has been politically unacceptable going after farmers for their environmental pollution. It happens from acute pollution incidents (slurry tank ruptures) but most of it is down to Nitrate/phosphate run off. The levels produced by farmers far outstrips the negligible amounts caused by septic tanks and private households. Every time the government has produced a report highlighting the primary cause the farming lobby has seen it buried. I worked in the water industry and spoke at length with a retired Professor of water technology who consulted for the company, and this is what he said from his own personal experience.

    This was what the nitrates directive was produced to address and the Irish state abused its derogation leading to the long standing case against the state for breaches of the Nitrates directive. The fines are accruing and the farming lobby is whining like a stuck pig with the first of many mass gathering to express their shock having taken place this week.

    The Irish publics patience with the farming industry has largely run out at this stage - Ireland is now predominantly urban and most people no longer see any reason to pick up the bills for their country cousins.



  • Registered Users Posts: 572 ✭✭✭GNWoodd


    That simply doesn’t make sense. You are implying that every Environment section in every Local Authority has taken the exact same decision not to prosecute individual farmers when they are found to cause water pollution ?

    . I didn’t mention septic tanks . I was referring to the inadequate treatment of human waste water at what were local authority plants that have been taken over by UE . These are the cases that are ending up in the courts. It would be laughable if prosecutions could be initiated against a government body but not against an individual farmer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    "The Irish publics patience with the farming industry has largely run out at this stage - Ireland is now predominantly urban and most people no longer see any reason to pick up the bills for their country cousins"


    Yes, we sedantry, intellectually savey and sophisticated urbanites can now just walk into a supermarket to get our food now. Don't need them darn polluting farmers no more.

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 572 ✭✭✭GNWoodd


    If you picked up the bill in full for the food that you consume, your country cousins sure would be mighty thankful to you sir.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,948 ✭✭✭Shoog


    If they didn't pollute I would say that the sympathy would still be there.

    I live in the country and my good neighbours are farmers. I also have swam in lakes where everything is covered in thick green slime and the coliform counts are off the scale because of the run off my good friends have caused.

    I have huge sympathy for the farmers since they were largely pushed into this position by the IFA, their buddies in the government and the meat factory owners. They are victims not criminals. Still those fines are mounting up and the issues will have to be addressed.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,441 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ah here, if you're suggesting something doesn't happen in ireland because there are no prosecutions, i have a bridge i can sell you.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,948 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The EU prosecutions are specifically about farm management of Nitrates and that is why the farmers are starting to organise mass protests, believe what you like about local authorities - but the reality is that in Ireland only those farmers who are grossly negligent or cruel ever get prosecuted. There is neither the resources or will within the LA to prosecute farmers for abuses (intentional or accidental) of the nitrates directive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 572 ✭✭✭GNWoodd


    if we accept that there are no prosecutions for agricultural pollution , and you imply that there should be, can you actually identify who should be prosecuted . Yes or No

    This whole debate about Farming causing pollution has me baffled. Either it is happening in certain areas of the country and not in others or else the whole Green argument is bogus. I have lived in a rural area for over 50 years . I have never seen a river or lake that was polluted by farming or by any other industry either.

    While I live, over the last 30 years, Farming on 95 per cent of the farms has become LESS intensive not more. What you have now is farmers having a small number of livestock on huge areas of land and the land being cut for hay etc or let go wild. There are probably a number of reasons for why this has happened. Most relate to lack of profitability and the availability of good off farm jobs. There is no demolition of ditches. There is no huge amounts of fertiliser being spread . There cannot be a loss of biodiversity, at least none that can be attributed to increased intensity of farming . I would estimate that this applies to 95 per cent of the county I live in

    So what the fcuk are the Greens on about ? And why are people who live and farm around here being demonised?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,890 ✭✭✭Jizique


    And I thought they were adding loads of solar to their grid



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭monseiur


    The greens and those who pander to their agenda are so introspective, small minded and so fixated on demonizing what they erroneously regard as evil, planet polluting, ne'er do good farmers that they are unable or unwilling to see the elephant in the room. I have some pertinent news for them ....climate change is a GLOBAL issue. The amount of carbon emissions we produce is so tiny it does not even register. Even if we reduced our emissions to zero it would not make an iota of difference FACT

    So I would appeal to the greens to STOP demonizing farmers and instead encourage them to produce more and a wider range of products including fruit & veg. With our moderate climate we should be almost self sufficient in all agriculture & horticulture products for at least 10 months of the year. The world's population is increasing and must be fed, we have the means at our disposal to help feed them with our almost organic products causing the least pollution to planet earth while protecting our bio diversity in the process. The fact is that unless our farmers fill the huge and ever increasing gap in the market others will in countries that have zero rules & regulations re. environment, pollution, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I don't get it, why is any report on Twitter followed by 99% of responses being people that don't believe in climate change and think it's all a scam? Like the vast majority of people listen to the scientists and think it's real. It's almost like it has been coordinated by Musk since he took over.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    One word @Thelonious Monk .. BOTS ..

    And people employed to pollute timelines, derail timelines for other agendas I reckon

    Twitter is mostly a cesspit when you go beyond the initial tweet, most of the time dont bother is my advice. I just use it for news based on who I follow .. news outlets, journos, scientists, generally people who are experts .. the rest I use the MUTE feature regularly



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    I really doubt they're bots though, not the ones on Irish Twitter anyway, they seem like real people, and they're all over every Irish Tweet that mentions the weather



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,948 ✭✭✭Shoog


    "The Minister for Agriculture Charlie McConalogue has told the Dáil that farmers may have to reduce livestock numbers, export slurry from their farms or reduce stocking rates by getting more land, if the European Commission acts on the agreement made with Ireland over declining water quality standards.

    Under the Nitrates Derogation and Ireland Nitrates Action Plan, 6,900 Irish farmers are allowed higher than average limits of organic livestock manure per hectare.

    ....

    He said farmers are making significant efforts to address water quality but the level of nutrients in many water course remains too high as evidenced by EPA reports."

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2023/0713/1394363-nitrates-derogation-and-ireland-nitrates-action-plan/

    Just made up **** hey ?

    At this stage this has been going on for over a decade and Ireland has faced various prosecutions over failure to meet its (relaxed) obligations under the nitrates directive.


    The fact is that large parts of the west of Ireland are indeed been destocked and abandoned, but the intensification of dairy operation more than makes up for any reductions to Nitrate pollution in the west.

    The Government and the IFA created this crisis through their explicit policy decisions and this is where you should be looking to apportion blame.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    Yip so my 2nd category - "And people employed to pollute timelines, derail timelines for other agendas I reckon" - and not just twitter but other soc media and FORUMS also

    I do believe these people are employed by entities with alt views on all this + it wouldnt surprise me people employed by political parties. To an extent its all very anonymous to you and me, no way to verify who is who. Small few might be people who genuinely have an issue with "Climate Change" and also likes of Covid and and and and ..

    You must ask how do these people have the time to spend all day tweeting these replies .. Just pick one of there profiles and see where and what else they are tweeting. Its an industry in my view



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    they all tweet the same stuff. anti climate change, pro russia, anti immigration, anti-trans, pro life, etc. etc. etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,819 ✭✭✭aidanodr


    Yes .. as I said if you look at a few of there profiles on twitter and look at what else they tweet about and where. Gives you good idea. All the above and more you mention. Its is a fulltime job. I also have no doubt that these people are involved in industrial size tweet farms so to speak, in other places like Russia etc ( as is case with malware, ransomware outfits - St Petersburg ). Keep in mind they could be based here in Ireland and Irish but employed by elsewhere

    You see, anyone can setup twitter ACCOUNTS for erroneous purposes. To be sure some of these tweeters have numerous accounts on the go, add a believable profile pic and some bio text and you are off. I also administer facebook groups, its a daily fight to keep out all these fake dodgy accounts trying to pass themselves off as "genuine"

    So stop thinking of these "people" commenting on twitter as just odd individuals, yes a few might be but most are from above I reckon



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,235 ✭✭✭Oneiric 3


    You forgot 'anti-vax'; 'pro-Trump", "conspiracy theorists', blah blah blah...

    New Moon



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,409 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    There's the bots, theres the shills, and then there are the useful idiots and too far gones.


    There's a small group of coordinated actors, sock puppetting and making it look like there's still a scientific debate. This then sucks in onlookers who think there must be fire because there's smoke, and some of them get dragged down the rabbit holes of wingnut conspiracy theories that all feed into one another cross fertilising each other and fueling paranoia and distrust of science and telling people to not believe the evidence in 'mainstream media'

    . It really is that simple and it's why such a terrifyingly high number of people in America believe in some or all of the Qanon conspiracies for example



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭tobesure


    The climate media spending by government is surely paying off.

    Non stop articles and coverage being churned out about hot temperatures in other parts of the world.

    It really is a cult, fear mongering. The thing is they always start with the kids. You can brainwash kids easily enough. Same tactics catholic church used.

    Like they try to guilt me for driving a car 1km to the shops and back and then you open flight radar and see all the flights.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,154 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    The government are paying the likes of the irish times and the journal to publish articles on climate change? Any proof of this?

    Are you a real person who believes stuff like this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,409 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    It's incredibly sad that you think the government has to pay the media to report on global extreme weather events

    What happened to your brain?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭tobesure


    I'd say George Lee and the other Irish climate doomers are sickened the heatwave isn't in Ireland so they can fear monger about the national record.

    Remember last year they tried to claim that the actual record wasn't that high because of equipment or something.



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