Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

Pete_Cavan · 07-02-2023 7:52am

Sure, but double tracking is at least 20 years away. The Oranmore passing loop won't be opened for another few years yet. Actually the biggest blockage to the double tracking, in my mind, is the push for the WRC northwards.

This is the point I was making before, people focusing on several steps down the line so the first step never happens. In the case of extending the WRC northwards, I think it has become more a platform for certain people to push their own agendas (self-promotion, an argument against providing infrastructure elsewhere, etc.) rather than actually about trains.

brianc89 · 07-02-2023 9:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210114#Comment_120210114

There is an alternative plan for a Greenway along the line. There is also a strong narrative that it makes no sense to reopen the line, at any point in future.

It's important for WRC to be discussed and decided on soon. Reopening the WRC to Tuam could actually push the case for double tracking sooner.

Pete_Cavan · 07-02-2023 9:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210174#Comment_120210174

Spending €50 to provide a crap service is not going to help the case for double tracking. If that level of funding was available, it should be put to proper use. The Business Case for reopening to Tuam won't stack up without double tracking, and possibly not even then.

brianc89 · 07-02-2023 9:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210188#Comment_120210188

I hear you, but you could argue that it's easier to push double tracking to Athenry if one of the reasons is future extension to Tuam.

If they build a Greenway on the line and everyone assumes Tuam will never happen, then it certainly never will happen.

cgcsb · 07-02-2023 11:28am

I've heard some key points of the strategy which is complete but there's no sign off from the NI executive. In the medium term its planned to double track:

- Portarlington to Athlone

- Athenry to Galway

- Kildare to Kilkenny

- Limerick to Limerick Junction

- Maynooth to beyond Mullingar

Galway and Belfast routes will be hourly with big journey time improvements for Dub to Galway. Dublin to Cork will increase to half hourly. A programme of level crossing closures across all lines with particular focus on main intercity routes. Electrification of intercity and associated journey time and frequency improvements. Navan, Kilcock, Sallins and Wicklow DART extensions.

The pie in the sky section (post 2040) includes:

A wild, radical and potentially impossible new intercity line between Dundalk and Derry via Omagh.

A Galway to Sligo line

A Navan to Cavan line

And yes even a fixed rail connection across to the UK.

I have the impression that the wilder bits might be deleted before publication if for no other reason than the NI dept of infrastructure can't commit to spending...Well anything.

AngryLips · 07-02-2023 12:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210575#Comment_120210575

Electrification before full double tracking ...🤔

cgcsb · 07-02-2023 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210754#Comment_120210754

Yes it seems some areas could see electrification before double tracking for example Athenry to Athlone may be electrified without double track. There's additional design issues most obvious being that we haven't been closing level crossings. So there may be hundreds of locations with level crossings on electrified lines which presents additional risks.

Geuze · 07-02-2023 2:22pm

The ultimate aim should be an intercity network as follows, with massive modal shift:

double-tracked
electrified
no level crossings
max speed 200 kph
12tph capacity
average speed, with limited stops, of at least 130kph
allows a mix of IC trains plus stopping trains

Dub to Belfast = 1.5hrs or 105 mins

Dub to Waterford = <2h

Dub to Cork = 2hrs

Dub to Limerick = 2hrs or less

Dub to Galway = <2h

cgcsb · 07-02-2023 3:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211213#Comment_120211213

I think your journey times are a good goal but really I think better is achievable. 230kmh is theoretically possible on some parts of the Cork line and journeys to Cork and Limerick could be much quicker. The Cork express train is already running at just a little over 2hrs. Limerick and Waterford already have sub 2 hour journeys.

Not much can be done about Dublin to Belfast. The key issue is creating am express track or tracks between Dublin and Drogheda which is a serious job no matter what route is chosen. There's also the issue that Northern Ireland still exists, meaning you won't see an investment north of dundalk for some time

pigtown · 07-02-2023 4:10pm

Any insight into Limerick-Dublin direct services and Limerick-Cork?

cgcsb · 07-02-2023 4:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211763#Comment_120211763

AFAIK nothing solid in the strategy about exact timetabling but a major renovation of Limerick Junction is proposed with Limerick and Cork connected by 'a mix' of direct and and changing trains.

With Dublin to Cork increasing in frequency, presumably with most of them having a connecting train to Limerick, I don't see where direct Cork to Limerick trains fit into that tbh. You'd have a train with a change every half hour between Cork and Limerick by default. Direct trains would mean a commuter like frequency/turn up and go. That's a lot of trains for Irish standards.

Perhaps some Limerick to Cork trains would run express and not stop at the junction at all.

AngryLips · 07-02-2023 4:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211827#Comment_120211827

What is there to renovate? Sounds like lipstick on a pig

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210575#Comment_120210575

They should just rename this the Commuter and Suburban Services Rail Review because that's literally all that's happening in these plans.

p_haugh · 07-02-2023 5:32pm

One thing I noticed when getting the train from Athlone to Dublin yesterday - to get from Athlone (or anywhere on the Galway/Westport branch) towards Cork, one would have to get out at Portarlington, wait for a Portlaoise/Limerick bound train and then switch again at either Portlaoise or Limerick Junction, depending on the time of day and which service you're aiming for.

By the time you do all that, you may as well have driven down.

pigtown · 07-02-2023 5:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211827#Comment_120211827

Tbh I think a shuttle service that connects Limerick to the Cork/Dublin train every half hour would be brilliant as long as there's no waiting around as is the case now, and the Junction is massively upgraded.

It might not be a bad idea to have a few morning and evening direct services that continue on to Galway though. I can't imagine many people travelling from Cork, changing at the Junction and also in Limerick. The trip would be slower than the bus when the M20 is done but an important connection to have I think.

cgcsb · 07-02-2023 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212063#Comment_120212063

A major increase in speed and frequency would largely resolve that

brianc89 · 07-02-2023 5:57pm

On the Limerick - Galway line, is there any hope of reducing journey time, or is that line massively constrained due to its winding nature?

namloc1980 · 09-02-2023 7:15pm

The Secretary of State for NI has pushed back the deadline for the Executive to form until January 2024. So nothing going to happen anytime soon. Is the publication of the review dependent on approval by the NI Executive?

cgcsb · 09-02-2023 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120221095#Comment_120221095

Yes. There'll likely have to be fundamental change to Stormont to restore government

brianc89 · 10-02-2023 9:53am

https://www.thejournal.ie/rail-review-network-5991337-Feb2023/

Piece in The Journal today.

cgcsb · 10-02-2023 10:22am

Sounds like fluff, nothing new in that. The reference to high speed being more long term than the fantasy lines to Donegal is interesting I think the journalists may have nodded off here. My understanding was that gradual improved speed on Dublin Cork would be a more immediate goal.

brianc89 · 10-02-2023 10:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222924#Comment_120222924

Are there two sides to Cork-Belfast... first being a near term improvement in journey times and second being a longer term very high speed new rail line?

bk · 10-02-2023 12:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120222966#Comment_120222966

A brand new, very high speed line is pure fantasy and while I’ll never say never, we certainly won’t see that in our lifetime.

cgcsb · 10-02-2023 12:35pm

Very high speed isn't likely to ever be an attractive investment in Ireland the distance between major trips generators isn't great enough for trains to make good use of a top speed exceeding 300kmh. Makes sense in Spain and France where you have 600km + journeys across sparsely populated interiors. The lower to medium scale of high speed that operates in Sweden and England at the moment would be more suitable.

Galway to Dublin and Cork to Belfast at 200 to 230kmh electrified running every half hour with timed connections for Limerick, Tralee, Westport/Balina and Derry is more than enough to connect about 80%-90% of the population to Dublin in less than 2 hours with a near turn up and go service, with Cork and Belfast also being reachable in 3 hours from just about anywhere. Keep fares cheap and save tonnes of carbon on intercity road journeys. It'd cost the guts of €10bn to achieve that, a lot less than we've spent on the motorway network and we'd finally have a modern public transport network.

We could reorganise the long distance bus services to be more of a feeder service to non rail connected locations rather than having them compete with the railways.

Ban internal flights other than to the islands.

Markcheese · 10-02-2023 3:16pm

There aren't many internal flights any more anyway , farranfore ( which has a rail link ) and Donegal ( which is almost an island 😁)

There's probably a case for another rail link between Dublin and Belfast , and upgrading the Cork Dublin line to take more/faster express trains and hopefully linking the 2 , ( Heuston to Dublin airport - and head north ?? Maybe ) it'd be doable but expensive, ( so is everything) , and eu money would probably cover a chunk of it.

The only thing is every politician would want it stopping in their town , ( even if by highish speed line existing it'd free up more commuter space on the current mainline,

Are the cities of Dublin and Belfast big enough to have a dedicated highish speed line between them ?

cgcsb · 10-02-2023 4:12pm

Yes Dublin and Belfast and everything between is 'big enough'. We need to stop worrying about over providing public transport in this country. We've never come close to over provision before so no need to worry.

Consonata · 10-02-2023 9:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120224299#Comment_120224299

It would be nice if even in the short term the PPT facilitated Cork trains to go by Glasnevin to act as an interchange for the airport when Metrolink gets built. Would almost negate the need for BÉ to run the Cork Dublin Airport service if the speeds were there.

bk · 10-02-2023 10:15pm

"Are the cities of Dublin and Belfast big enough to have a dedicated highish speed line between them ?"

No, the rule of thumb for high speed rail is that it needs to connect cities of at least 1 million and distances of over at least 300km.

While Dublin has over 1 million people, Belfast is well below that and it is relatively too close. Add to that the complexity of Belfast being in a different state and how little the British are willing to invest in Northern Ireland, along with all the problems with the executive up there, there is pretty much zero chance there will ever be a true high speed line to Belfast.

At the very least, forget about it until we get a united Ireland. Under a united Ireland we might be able to squeeze money out of the EU for it, but then then it would be a stretch.

Honestly, I don't know where people think there is the demand to spend 10 billion or a lot more on high speed rail. I'm a Corkonian living in Dublin and have many family and friends who are the same. I've honestly never heard any demand from any of them for high speed rail. Mostly they are all delighted with the "new" motorway network and how much faster it is then the old roads.

I hear a lot more interest down in Cork on the upgrades to commuter rail, possible Luas line, etc.

Most people rarely if ever take intercity trips and those who do, maybe twice once or twice a month. 2 - 3 hours is not such a big deal for such trips. Commuting into and out of work every day is where the most demand is. If you have €10 billion to spend on rail, spend it on all the commuter rail services, Metro, Luas, etc. Those will carry vastly more people for that money and benefit far more peoples lives.

I'd argue if you want to improve intercity rail, follow the Dutch model. While they do have one high speed rail line, that is more because it is an international line. Most of the network isn't high speed, but it is all electric and higher speed then ours.

But what really makes it good is the fact that it is so cheap and so frequent. Turn up and go, trains always leaving and very affordable. Hell kids up to 12 can travel anywhere in the Netherlands for just €2.50!

I honestly feel copying the Dutch model and making rail affordable would do more to encourage intercity rail, then creating a super expensive high speed rail service that cost billions to build and ends up with ticket prices well north of €100 one way!

Markcheese · 10-02-2023 11:28pm

I don't think there was ever a suggestion of a new high speed line to cork , but upgrades would be great ,

Isn't the current Belfast line limited by terrain ,so the speeds are quite limited .

True high speed is probably unnecessary for Ireland .. but something like a penolino could hit speeds of up to 250 kph , although with stops along the way (mallow? Limerick junction or ballybrophy,Heuston, Dublin airport ? Belfast ? Each stop would add 5 or 10 mins , and urban area would probably be slower too,

It'd still be billions ,

cgcsb · 11-02-2023 11:43am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226222#Comment_120226222

Nobody is really advocating for building new high speed lines though, improving existing lines for 200-250kmh is the way forward. We could achieve that for about 10bn on main routes. The ticket prices are not connected to the cost of building it.

The cities have their own transport strategies, Dublins will cost the guts of 15bn to implement, Cork's will cost about 5bn. As you point out Belfast will have €0 investment. This strategy is about the intercity network.

Markcheese · 11-02-2023 12:01pm

It's 90 to 100 km from Dublin to the border , no stops .. how much per km would that cost , (not highspeed line, just good quality 2 track line ,electrified ,) ,I assume somewhere around the same costs as a 2 +2 road , but without any junction cost .. so 5 -10 million per km ,? maybe , and then whatever it costs to connect to a cork line ,? If it was proposed properly the eu would prob get involved ,

I've no idea how limited the track on the northern side is.

Markcheese · 11-02-2023 12:28pm

Of course this is total pie in the sky , if you wanted to fund an express Belfast ,Dublin cork service , it'd be about 4 and half to 5 hours on an express coach, you could make it business class seating , run one every half an hour ,24 / 7 , charge 20 quid a ticket and it'd still come in costing billions less than a new train link ,

In fact you could do that to link most cities on the island and still come in cheaper than building and running Belfast - Cork via Dublin ..

cgcsb · 11-02-2023 1:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120227883#Comment_120227883

It wouldn’t be a simple case of cost per km because different sections have different needs in order to improve speed. Major construction projects are now near impossible to accurately cost because of global factors, inflation, materials and labour shortages etc. So you can only ballpark a figure based on what's been done elsewhere in Europe.

For example Drogheda to Dublin will be a line shared between DART and enterprise services from about 2030 when DART+ is finished and serving Drogheda every 10 mins. To avoid enterprises getting stuck behind DART the only option is to build 2 new tracks. In my opinion those 2 new tracks should not be beside the existing ones but further inland closer to the M1 to provide a straighter alignment and provide a stop at the airport. Such a line would then have to be partially tunnelled in Dublin or have a very cleverly designed route, or share the short Pheonix Park Tunnel with DARTS. This would be a multi billion euro project, 3bn plus really.

The Drogheda to Dundalk section would be a much simpler job, it could be straightened, electrified and upgraded for hundreds of millions.

Newry to Belfast is woeful jointed rail, early 20th century stuff on an indirect route shared with slow diesel commuters with no prospect of upgrade. The only real option for an upgrade is a new line from Newry to Lisburn close to the A1. This would also be in the 3bn plus region. Of course as long as NI exists there's little hope of the English wanting to pay for such an upgrade that they'll never benefit from electoraly or economically.

If the above was done for say 6bn you'd be doing extremely well and you'd have 250kmh speeds for most of the route, with end to end journeys of an hour or less for express services, it could also be done in phases. Of course the main benefits and the majority of passengers would be using it to commute from say Drogheda or Dundalk to Dublin, such a line would offer unbeatable journey times of 15-20 mins and 30 mins respectively so driving or taking buses or even the DART would be pointless in comparison. It would be worth doing even if it stopped short of Newry for the Dundalk commuters, the freeing up of the DART line for more frequent trains and connecting the airport to the intercity network, such trips would likely greatly outnumber trips between Dublin and Belfast in any case. Also Dublin Airport will be heading for 40 million passengers by end of decade so an intercity service would indeed be handy, it is the country's main airport.

Dublin to Cork is in far better condition and has had a lot of upgrades already and the DART+ project will effectively provide the line with express tracks straight to Heuston by 2030 anyway. Electrification and any additional upgrades could give a mix of 200 to 250kmh running, it could be done for about 3bn. You'd have journey times of 1.5 hours or less for express trains. Much more passengers do Cork to Dublin than Belfast to Dublin but of course the benefits would mostly be those using to get from Portlaoise to Dublin on a daily basis in 30 mins.

Markcheese · 11-02-2023 1:48pm

Sorry , I meant if you were to build a new Dublin to the border line , completely bypassing Drogheda and Dundalk so no stops at all once past Dublin airport . and upgrade the current cork Dublin line to allow for more express trains ,

There'd need to be stops to link in Kerry at mallow and limerick at limerick junction or ballybrophy , and then flat out to Heuston ?

cgcsb · 11-02-2023 2:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228287#Comment_120228287

There'd be no appetite for bypassing the largest trip generators

breezy1985 · 11-02-2023 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120149985#Comment_120149985

Dublin has a good motorway network not Ireland. Limerick to Galway is practically the only non Dublin related motorway in the country.

Again Intercity to Dublin is brilliant and in fairness the Limerick to Dublin train really is but it's a very quick sliding scale after that.

Markcheese · 12-02-2023 8:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120228397#Comment_120228397

How would you get a new rail line into Drogheda and Dundalk ? Without following the existing alignment? Which can't really support higher speeds ..

, And they already have pretty good commuter connections , which could probably be improved upon ..

Economics101 · 12-02-2023 2:58pm

Irish Times has a piece on the rail network yesterday (Sat 11th). Mostly about the West and North-West, with opening paragraphs bout the Lartigue railway (in CO Kerry. Hopelessly focussed on the areas least likely to suit rail investment, which should focus on where there is a potentially large volume of traffic.

And of course no mention of main-line electrification, about which we seem to have a blind spot. I'm not too hopeful about any review.

namloc1980 · 12-02-2023 3:05pm

Too much energy being spent on fantasy projects to reopen rural railways.

monument · 12-02-2023 4:04pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120226222#Comment_120226222

Are you getting caught up with the phrase high-speed rail? And maybe the idea that everything would be done at once? Even the Germans and French didn't do it that way, and most smaller countries don’t. So, I don't know why we would.

For any new lines, we'd also be talking about a max of something around 250km/h-260km/h.

Just like has happened in the UK with HS2, the high-speed nature of the line is focused on and the benefits are not. One of the main benefits of a new Dublin-Belfast line is freeing up the Northern line to be pretty much Dart-only services, and connectivity (ie intermediary stop, increasing the network effect, increasing frequency and capacity etc).

Most people not talking about intercity rail isn't really a surprise, is it? That applies to most large infrastructure projects until there is some strength behind them. On the reverse even if that, I know a lot of people who would support the WRC in Mayo and Galway who are unlikely to use it much if at all.

But imagine your arguments that most travel is more local so we should not worry too much about investing in intercity rail being applied to roads?

In terms of allowing growth and decarbonisation at the same time, pitting local/regional and intercity rail against each other is now as much of an issue as roads vs rail. Both trip types need to be tackled.

Saying look at the Dutch model without taking into account how much that's focused on the very compact Randstad area (plus a bit of the southeast of the county) is a bit misleading. Even within the Randstad there are intercity direct and highspeed services between Dutch cities, and, when you're talking about international services, Amsterdam-Brussels is in the range of km distance of Dublin-Belfast. Of course, they different population sizes and onwards to Cork is hardly comparable onwards to Paris or London etc.

I think your point re frequency is more important -- frequency is more important than high speed. If there was a vision in Ireland for a line/route servicing Cork-Dublin-Belfast or even Cork-Limerick-Dublin-Belfast-Derry, you're not just improving those nodes but everywhere that links to them. The rail network Randstad acts like a network, but it's not comparable in the same sense that there's one main trunk line and so much linking to it.

Markcheese · 12-02-2023 4:47pm

For the size of the island we don't necessarily need high speed rail per say , like a tgv or ave,fast rail would do fine, distance, number of stops/restricted speed areas ect,

A train that does 400 kph max does not travel platform to platform at 400koh average ..

So cork to Dublin optimized for express services (3 or 4 tracking where necessary + pendolino trains maybe )

Connecting via a Dublin airport transport hub ,to an all new rail line to the border freeing up the existing line to be commuter / dart the entire way ..

bk · 12-02-2023 6:31pm

“Are you getting caught up with the phrase high-speed rail? And maybe the idea that everything would be done at once? Even the Germans and French didn't do it that way, and most smaller countries don’t. So, I don't know why we would.”

No I was literally replying to a poster a few posts before mine that suggested we build a brand new true high speed rail line:

“ second being a longer term very high speed new rail line?”

Frankly people are always bringing up the idea of completely new, true high speed lines both here on boards and even worse over on Reddit, that is what I’m responding too.

Even the lower end high speed projects some people are talking are quiet unrealistic IMO

Frankly we just need to roll up our sleeves and get working on the reasonable speed improvement projects that can be done on the existing intercity lines.

Close as many level crossings as possible, increased frequency on all the lines, double tracking, electrification, all need to be done and can bring nice speed improvements.

And frankly non of that is anywhere as important Dart+, Metrolink, Commuter rail improvements in Cork, etc.

FrankLeeSpeaking · 12-02-2023 7:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118240839#Comment_118240839

They actually got a consultant this time who knows about rail transport I see.

monument · 12-02-2023 7:55pm

As I said, one of the main benefits of a new line between the Kildare line and the northern line would be freeing up the inner commuter area of the northern line for Dart services.

A new line is more practical than adding tracks to the northern line.

Saying Dart+, Metro etc are more important is missing the point, it will take years for such a new line to be progressed and there’s no way the construction timelines would clash.

The case for intercity rail investment is strong on emissions grounds — both shorter and long-distance trips need to be decarbonised. One or the other doesn’t really wash anymore.

If we are to take learnings from the Dutch approach as you suggested, intercity and regional rail would somewhat merge — Irish Rail does it to some extent already but without enough capacity and frequency. In maybe a roundabout way, I’m going back to agreeing with that part of your last post.

And, yes, with any rail proposals, we should be more looking at the likely viable capacity and frequency than speed.

veryangryman · 14-02-2023 12:45pm

Have you ever got a morning commuter train and noticed that nobody (and i mean nobody) gets off at any station other the the Dublin Terminal? Alas the demand isnt there for anything that diverts from there

Markcheese · 14-02-2023 2:42pm

In a way that's not surprising , it'd be the opposite in the evenings ,

And if you look at the motorways that feed on to the m50 it'll be the same ,

Outside of the centre it's easier to drive to your destination and park ,

marno21 · 17-07-2023 8:36am

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/07/17/atlantic-railway-spine-from-ballina-to-rosslare-and-higher-speed-intercity-travel-proposed-in-rail-review/

The obsession with non existent freight flows to Mayo from Rosslare continues.

If that’s the main recommendation in the report it’ll read like a trainspotters wish list not a serious rail plan

end of the road · 17-07-2023 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120861353#Comment_120861353

there doesn't need to be freight flows between the 2.

the whole point of the spine is that it allows for multiple different journey opportunities for passengers especially and freight.

it's the journey opportunities opened up that is important rather then the exact 2 end destinations.

if they deliver it all and i would be surprised if they do, it will be transformative and a big step in the modernisation of the country that is needed.