Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Funnily enough - there’s not a single timetabled service that manages Athenry to Galway in 15 minutes. All are timetabled for 19-21 minutes.

Similarly, Castlebar-Claremorris only manages 19min once, on the 5.28am departure. All other departures take a few minutes longer.

It’s almost like the poster who already been caught lying, but accuses everyone else of lying, is yet again being economical with the truth

Galway needs an hourly train to Dublin at least that can complete the journey in under 2 hours and that means double track Portarlington to Athlone and Athenry to Gakway. Then something has to be done about journey times between Limerick and Galway. Building new routes while the existing lines are archaic makes no sense.

You asked for some quotes. The Baxter one from the link is from James Jordan, head of planning, warehouse and distribution at Baxter on 2nd June.

“The development of an inland rail freight hub at Castlebar and the reopening of the Western Rail Corridor are key infrastructure enablers to support this drive to sustainability and will be fully supported by Baxter and other local businesses in the area.”

https://www.con-telegraph.ie/2023/06/02/baxter-commence-rail-freight-from-mayo-to-waterford-port/

In relation to Rosslare I was referring to a quote from Glenn Carr who responded favourably to James Jordan's plans. Glenn is the Derector for Commercial Business units at Irish Rail and Irish Rail operates Rosslare port. According to his Linkedin profile he has "Direct responsibility for the ongoing management, investment and future development of the commercial businesses within Irish rail which includes; Rosslare Europort, Rail Freight and Navigator Road Haulage."

https://lk.linkedin.com/posts/glenn-carr-26485113_railfreight-railway-irishrail-activity-7070310295054770176-4AGM

You said that I've convinced myself that the AIRR will recommend opening the line, so are you suggesting that it wont? (every recent update from goverment suggests it will so not sure why you are making that point? - even today again in the Irish Times

https://www.irishtimes.com/transport/2023/07/17/atlantic-railway-spine-from-ballina-to-rosslare-and-higher-speed-intercity-travel-proposed-in-rail-review/

Then you say that even does recommend reopening that it will that it will mean nothing. So again you are unable to accept its predicted recommendations but you are out of touch with what is being reported.

In terms of it needing a business case Eamon Ryan said last week that he acknowledges that he will have to get it approved at cabinet level but is confident that there is "a real strong economic case now".

You said "Connecting Tuam might benefit Tuam itself but does nothing for the wider region." That makes no sense - if Tuam benefits from being connected to other towns then the other towns connected to Tuam must get some benefit.

I'm sure Baxter would be happy for the government to pay for more rail network for the to potentially use, why wouldn't they? I'm sure there are plenty of companies across the country who want infrastructure built for them but doesn't mean it automatically happens, have a system to ensure only worthwhile projects get funded.

I don't see anything there actually showing any concrete plans for rail freight in Rosslare Europort. They do have plans for €100+ investment which doesn't involve rail freight and leaves limited space to accommodate it.

I made the point that the AIRR recommending reopening of WRC doesn't mean much as it is not part of any investment plans for the next decade. Being in the AIRR doesn't make a difference to the Business Case, cost v benefits is what matters and then it needs to have a better case than other projects.

Of course Baxter will be happy with different options and more networks. You asked for proof that they said it and I provided it.

I don't know the detail on what plans Rosslare has for specific spending. There has been some mention of the WRC connecting to Foynes as well so that may become more likely.

I'm only referencing what I'm reading. Eamon Ryan has been fairly consistent. He has ruled out north of Claremorris for rail for the foreseeable future but has maintained support for south of the town and has even held his ground on seeming to prioritise the WRC over the N17 even though he knows it upsets people. He said he wont give false promises so he deserves some credit for that.

Cost v benefit matters yes and he is confident he has the case to make taking everything into account. Nothing is guaranteed but lets see what happens.

Why the obsession with Rosslare? As has been pointed out it's mainly a Ro-Ro, almost nothing nothing to do with rail. There are plans for Rosslare, largely about facilities to service offshore wind generation. Nothing to do with rail. If you have ever been to Rosslare you would see that adapting it to handle container rail freight is virtually impossible

Meanwhile for Lo-Lo container traffic Waterford/Belview has huge potential. Prior to the collapse of Bell Lines in the 90s it handled 5 or 6 container trains a day to Dublin, Limerick and Cork, a large multiple of its present rail traffic.

The level of ignorance on Ballina-Rosslare is staggering.

given their trains would be serving bellview, then of course they would advocate for upgrades.

there is no empire building here by irish rail, irish rail were neither interested in rail freight or even rosslare for a long time, they are effectively being forced to invest in both so as to increase their commercial income.

nothing stinks or is out of order, rather simply proposing a spine that allows for multiple different opportunities for passengers and freight, there is no requirement to have an exact service between the 2 destinations mentioned.

The other thing which Rosslare Europort is missing to allow it operate rail freight is a rail connection with available capacity. It's only current rail connection is the mainline to Dublin but there isn't available paths on that north of Wicklow, possibly even further south than that. Even if additional capacity were to be created south of Bray, there is no scope for meaningful freight trains north of there.

The only realistic route for rail freight to Rosslare is via the South Wexford line. That would no doubt require another significant spend (reopening the line to Foynes is costing €60m for comparison). It would also involve freight trains passing Belview Port which already handles rail freight. So between WRC reopening, South Wexford line reopening and Rosslare Europort expansion and upgrades, it would cost several hundred million € for freight from Mayo to go through Rosslare.

The same money would allow for multiple meaningful improvements on the existing network, which would benefit more passengers and allow for greater rail freight usage. You would hope that the AIRR would recognise these things.

When it comes to governments the only report that counts is the latest/current one or in this case impending one. Even since the last one was submitted to government in 2020 the government has changed it approach to climate change and public transport. Varadkar has said as much.

The last report of the reports you mentioned said Tuam had a population of around 1,000 which just about sums up how credible that one was. Funny how you reference past ones in making your point but have already on a number of occasions called the next one "Toilet paper" without having seen it - quite contradictory.

Still waiting for your cost breakdown of the €100m you say will cover upgrading the existing lines instead of opening the WRC.

A handful of containers being handled as RoRo doesn’t make a container terminal. Rosslare themselves report them as RoRo units instead of TEUs.

Rail freight means you need an actual container terminal - which means LoLo capabilities are a must. Rosslare currently can’t handle LoLo and doesn’t have the space to built a container terminal on

3m for a siding into Rosslare. Are you joking? It would involve much more than that. Have you ever been to Rosslare and seen the constraints to developing meaningful Lo-Lo capacity?

https://www.irishrail.ie/IrishRail/media/Timetable-PDF-s/Heuston-timetables/10_dublin-westportballina.pdf

The published timetables say differently - 05.28 from Castlebar is scheduled for 19 minutes. the rest of the weekday departures are 20, 23, 21 and 20 minutes. There's no Saturday or Sunday departures timetabled to take less than 20 minutes.

Why make stuff up when it can be so easily disproven?

The only services which make it from Galway to Athenry in 15 minutes are Intercity services to/from Dublin that don't stop at Oranmore. Not comparable to what would be a commuter service similar to Limerick to Galway where every single scheduled service stops at Oranmore. It's like using the Dublin-Belfast line to estimate timings of a proposed spur to Dublin Airport.

It's very transparent that you've no interest in honestly presenting anything here - just spinning anything and everything to try and claim it justifies reopening the line.

Your timings are irrelevant because the ability to travel at a certain speed is not the only constraint. It may be possible to do Castlebar - Galway in 83 minutes (hardly amazing in itself) pre 6am but unlikely for the rest of the day. And even if that time can be regularly achieved, how many people want to make the journey?

At either end of the Athenry - Claremorris section, you have single track which accommodates main line intercity services. For a train to get from Castlebar to Galway via WRC, it has to join/leave two other lines, this limits through paths. An available path heading east out of Castlebar might result in the train approaching Athenry when other services are scheduled to use the station (bear in mind that WRC Phase 1 trains use the station to change direction).

The single track mainlines mean serious limitations on what can be achieved in terms of adding new services from a branch. Obviously the existing intercity services will be given priority as they connect the west to bigger towns (i.e. Athlone, Tullamore, Portlaoise, Kildare, Newbridge, Naas, and of course Dublin). The freight angle is a red herring as freight is already been carried on the existing network and more could be added with targeted investment without WRC.

Double-tracking and capacity increases are needed first on the existing network but even that doesn't guarantee the fastest theoretical time Castlebar - Galway as you still have crossing manoeuvres which require time and good timing. This is why this focus on a Ballina - Rosslare "spine" is only a distraction, the real spine is the existing network which will have to support an expanded network.

The claim then is "we can do both, it doesn't have to be one or the other", well in the real world of limited resources and capacity constraints (funding, labour, planning system, etc.), we need to prioritise and first progress that which will have most benefit. All the media attention around the AIRR has been on reopening lines (WRC, Waterford - Rosslare, Navan, spur to Donegal) and clearly a lot of politicians are on that bandwagon (which the MfT is steering), it only detracts from what needs to happen first. If the AIRR is to be worth the paper it's printed on, it should be making this clear.

Even when Bertie Ahern was firing around borrowed money like snuff at a wake we still did not have unlimited resources and we also had capacity constraints. However, rather than doing "what need[ed] to happen first" (double-tracking Portarlington to Athlone, or double-tracking Athenry to Galway, to cite two examples) we went ahead and built Ennis-Athenry at a cost of over 100 million. We did this because the politicians were under the mistaken belief that this was what the public wanted, thanks to the relentless (and admittedly successful) campaigning of a small pressure group.

Of course, once it was built, the public showed, by their refusal to use it, that it was not what they wanted at all. But sure what harm, 'twas only 100 million.

No politician is ever going to get their photo in the paper double-tracking a line. It's just not a mediaworthy item. So, despite the limited resources and capacity constraints we have now, I wouldn't underestimate the likelihood of it happening. I haven't heard one politician from the West of Ireland oppose it, or suggest that the other work should be done first, even though they may know that to be the case.

That politician is smart enough and honest to the electorate in fairness. No point putting the cart before the horse. What's there position on double tracking Athenry to Galway City?

Confirmation today that the AIRR has recommended opening the WRC to Claremorris

https://www.thejournal.ie/rail-review-report-donegal-cavan-monaghan-6127273-Jul2023/

Bad urban planning on the part of galway council is hardly grounds to ignore any rail upgrades.

Why bother double tracking galway to athenry if its of no use to commuters going to parkmore

So I think more less everyone agrees the Portadown to Mulingar part is by far the most, shall we say, imaginative. What annoys me is why did they not just draw that line a lil bit further to Portarlington, if you're gonna dream that hard, might aswel finish