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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Jizique


    That must be why onshore wind generation in the UK was down 44% yoy in Q2



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Typical green malarkey..

    They know the cost and timeline of any suggested alternatives to their own pet energy source, but when asked for the cost and timeline for that source, not a clue. Not even a "back of a matchbox guesstimate" yet still contest the figures.

    Fair enough I know that you do not have a great grasp of mathematics, but I thought you would at least have a basic idea of how business operate. You keep throwing up links as to how busy these companies are with all the demand for their product, if that is the case then we are pitching contracts at a sellers market, and no business in a sellers market quotes a loss making price.

    It also doesn`t matter how long these offshore turbines will survive either. On a 15 year contract these companies will front load all the cost plus their profit margin for the length of the contract. It`s business basics 101.

    This idea that it doesn`t matter the cost because the initial capital is being provide by private companies is childlike nonsense. The consumer will pay the cost plus the profit margin, and not just for the electricity they consume. They will be paying on the double as this offshore plan is for 50% generated to go towards consumption with the other 50% being used for the production of hydrogen. But it doesn`t even stop there. Now the same consumers will also be paying for electricity that is not used on top of that.

    As a plan, it`s a sweet deal for these private companies. For consumers it`s financial lunacy that if it was the plot for a grifters novel would be in a editors wastepaper basket after the first page being read.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,591 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande


    Wrong compassion. Bus Eireann is nowhere close to a $3.5 trillion global industry. On the other hand oil and gas industry products ($2.1 trillion) are just the raw material used for value add products that the climate change™ industry depends on. Wind and solar on the electricity grid are entirely dependent on gas, the reverse is not the case.

    The climate conversation is a vehicle of convenience for several disparate groups to push their agendas forward. You can color them on a spectrum of green from the dark green followers of Malthus, the dollar green vested interests chasing profit, the avocado's - green on the outside and brown on the inside, the water melons - green on the outside and red on the inside i.e. eco-socialism, even Osama Bin Laden was an environmentalist. Bankers, politicians, religious leaders on the whole are not scientists, most don't care what scientists have to say, they have a narrative to follow. Scientists who disagree with the narrative get labelled with pejoratives such as denier, their funding is cut and it becomes difficult for them to get papers published. The past 50 years are littered with the failed predictions of scientists with regard to the climate, these are not infallible people. Scientists can't even agree on sensitivity of CO2 (Equilibrium Climate Sensitivity), when they can't get that right among themselves, we must put low confidence in their projections of future climate states.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,543 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    While wind is known to be variable the alternatives also have variable output. They aren't supposed to though.

    Take France - nuclear output in 2022 was the lowest in 23 years. Only about half the 61.4 GW installed capacity was available on average

    French gas demand for electrical plants also jumped 54% year on year to a record high of 60.5 TWh.

    Meanwhile, the share of renewables rose to a record 26% despite hydropower output falling nearly 21% year on year to 49.6 TWh due to a severe drought.

    High temperatures could halve nuclear power production at plants along France's Rhone River this week.


    All across Europe Russian gas and nuclear fuel imports got unpredictable which isn't good news for Finland , the Czechs , Slovakia, Hungry and Bulgaria or the developers of the SMR's (typical delays of 2 + years announced , as if they actually had working models )


    UK wind (in cyan) is displacing a lot of fossil fuel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    But that is not how a company tenders a price for a contract.

    It tenders based on the capital cost, the operational cost, and their expected profit over the length of time of the contract. In our case for offshore 15 years. They do not tender on the basis that they can refit and get a subsequent contract at the same price.

    If they do, then they are in bonus territory. Price their original tender on that basis and fail, then they will have lost money over the length of the contract which will not go down well with shareholders to put it mildly.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    So if meat is the problem then does that not make a giraffe or a deer or an elephant just as evil as a cow ?

    Does that not then imply people are also the problem, we're meat. How long then will it be before the greens start advocating for a cull of people, restriction of food aid, euthanasia



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    Yes and yes

    That's why the aluminium smelters located here



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The ESB and BnM are about to start construction on a 108MW solar farm in Kildare.

    It's part of a joint venture which will see them build up to 500MW on BnM lands

    RTE news : Bord na Móna, ESB start construction of new solar farm





  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    A lot of generation is still state owned Roosterman. Between Esb, Bord Gais, Bord na Mona and Coillte, they have a nice corner of the market. All competing with each other for resources and driving the price up for everyone in the name of supposed competition. I guess the latter two can justify their involvement because of all those offshore bogs and forests we have in the Irish Sea while Bord Gais reconciled getting involved in wind on account of all the hot gasses coming out of supporters of the sector.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,549 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I though we were rewetting all the peatland to reduce CO2 emissions (while simultaneously increasing methane)



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,741 ✭✭✭PommieBast




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,897 ✭✭✭Jizique


    Orsted and Iberdrola pulled out of US offshore projects this week



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sadly there's a lot of land BnM has that is beyond any possibility of restoration due to the amount of peat extracted. A quick look at imagery suggests Timahoe was such a site.

    I don't know the exact locations of all their planned solar farms but I can only assume the other sites to be used fall into this category. I guess we'll know more as they announce details for the other solar farms

    It's a shame really. It would have been better if these sites had never been drained and were left alone but that ship has sailed



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,549 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    They were drained to harvest peat. That was policy at the time and in my view, should still be allowed in some cases. No benefit to stopping peat harvesting here and then import peat from eastern Europe by the ship load. BTW, do you know if those eastern Europe countries have the same rewetting plans as us?



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    I realy do not see what your point is.

    For one that wind farm you are referring to is onshore not offshore is it not, and offshore is a whole different and much harsher environment .

    Secondly are you saying that they just removed the turbines and blades from 14 of those 28 towers and replaced them with turbines 10 times more powerful on top of the same towers using the same nacelles and bases ?


    If so then when you consider compression and tensil stress loads it is very dodgy engineeering doing so with towers and bases that were designed to handle completely different load and stress levels.


    To me it looks more the case that they would have dismantled all of those 28 turbines and bases and replaced them with 14 larger turbines and nacelles on towers and bases designed to carry those loads and sresses safely.

    If that is the case then the only saving would be the on the road into the site, again if it was designed originally to carry those heavier loads. But that really is immaterial as for offshore it would not be a saving as there are no roads.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No benefit to stopping peat harvesting here and then import peat from eastern Europe by the ship load.

    You do know we export a crap ton more than we import?




  • Registered Users Posts: 15,105 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Only a few weeks ago we were being told by some here that CapEx costs for offshore were falling when it was mention they were rising, yet here we have Vattenhall pulling out of a U.K. offshore development because of an up to 40% increase in capital expenditure costs.

    Looks like some here have been either getting their figures wrong by a very wide margin, or they have been telling porkies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,549 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    I do. Which backs up my point. Why are we bothering to import any when we have plenty here already



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Wow, this is a big investment in cutting emissions for the Musgrave group and is already paying dividends with a 9% reduction in emissions so far

    Musgrave’s aims to use the fund to help cut its carbon emissions - including those from its energy usage - by 46% by 2030.

    It is aiming to become net zero by 2040.

    By the end of this year they'll have installed 26,500 solar panels on 100 locations across the country. By 2025, they're looking to replace all bulbs with LED's (I'm guessing this is being done on an attritional basis with that timeline), doors fitted in 75% of its outlets’ fridges and having all of its own-brand packaging made from recyclable, reusable or compostable material by 2025 also.

    I'm very impressed



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The annual report for the DECC has been released and has some interesting numbers.


    They are still targeting 80% of electricity generation from renewables by 2030. The 5GW for offshore wind and 9GW for onshore wind by 2030 was already known. The 5GW for solar by 2025 was also already known, but they have now also stated that the solar target for 2030 will be 8GW. To be honest I think thats a very low target for solar and it wouldn't surprise me if we end up over 10GW's of solar by 2030

    The implementation rate of CAP 2021 stood at 79%, with 757 of 962 measures completed. Not great, but not terrible either. I would hope to see that % increasing as this becomes more embedded

    In terms of the national retrofit programme

    • there were over 50,000 applications processed (up 140% year-on-year)
    • Capital expenditure of €188m (up 90% year-on-year)
    • 27,200 home energy upgrades completed (up 78% year-on-year)
    • 8,481 B2 upgrades completed (up 95% year-on-year)
    • 4,438 fully funded upgrades for low income households (up 85% year-on-year)

    Again, not great numbers, but the growth is encouraging and bodes well for the future

    On the interconnectors front, the 2 new ones are moving to construction, 700MW to France and 500MW to Wales. Once completed this will take us to 1700MW of interconnector capacity

    Next up, the Deposit Return Scheme, this looks like it will be rolling out early next year, Feb 2024 I think. This should see a nice increase in our recycling rates.

    Loads more good stuff in the report



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,549 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Another question! Wasn't there a big hooha about installing solar on all public roofs or something? What ever happened that? Should they be targeting that for local microgeneration instead of building on bogs?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They are targeting it also

    The planning exemption was only signed off back in Oct last year so I guess depending on size, scale, availability etc, it will take time to roll out but we should start seeing movement on it fairly soon I'd say. Granted, it won't happen overnight and will likely take a decade or more to complete given the amount of buildings in the scope e.g. there's 3,300 primary schools, 700 secondary schools and so on.

    Given that each one will be a bespoke installation, thats a significant body of work to be done

    As for targeting it ahead of bogs, like I said earlier, I don't think there's much chance of viable bogs seeing solar installations not least because installing anything into peat wouldn't make any sense given its composition and rewetting/restoration would make more sense (from an emissions standpoint) where that is a viable option.



  • Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭bluedex


    Indeed. Well said.

    I'm employed in the Asset Management industry, which is currently in the middle of an "ESG" drive to make investing "Green" (The E, or Environmental part of ESG). Everyone in the industry now knows that it this mainly a marketing ploy at this stage, much to the dismay of the original financial regulators, as it was intended as a regulatory "label" or guarantee to ensure ESG funds/products were really ESG and holding qualifying securities - funds labeled as Article 8 and Article 9 being ESG funds to varying degrees.

    The marketing is succeeding as people invest in these products thinking they are contributing to the Climate Change project. The reality is a lot different. Trying to stop firms using ESG as a marketing tool, the regulators narrowed the criteria for the Article 9 funds, the strictest category being “a Fund that has sustainable investment as its objective or a reduction in carbon emissions as its objective.”  Nearly all asset managers restated their article 9 funds as article 8 subsequent to this, a less stringent category.

    We are obligated to undergo "ESG training" and attend ESG forums, in order to prove that the firm and employees are collectively committed to the agenda. However, it's all BS - that's very obvious when you do the training or attend the various courses - there's no room for debate. The majority of people know this but do it anyway as they need a job and an income.

    It really is a religion at this stage.

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,549 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    There's a world of wind farms built in bogs. Your last line then is bull



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,549 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Yep. My closest one is privately owned and when the turf cutting ban first came in the owner got wind turbines put up on it. Then in the last year he wanted to put solar on the rest, but was refused permission



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Something I've mentioned before, motor taxation based on the weight of the vehicle and/or miles driven, has now been made as an official recommendation to the govt by the Tax Strategy Group ahead of the next budget

    They stated that such a system (weight based) is already in place in Norway, Belgium and the Netherlands.

    They also propose congestion charges and road usage charges as other options.

    These are being recommended to replace the shortfall in taxation as consumers move away from ICE options towards EV ones.

    One example of weight based taxation is in France where the new taxation is applied to vehicles over 1,800 kgs with a 10 eur levy per kilogram above that weight. At present this does not apply to EV's but I'm guessing that will change in time

    The group also calls out the existing fossil fuel subsidies that should be eliminated as a measure to promote the transition away from using such fuels

    The CSO estimated total fossil fuel subsidies in Ireland amounted to €2.2 billion in 2020, with indirect subsidies arising from revenue foregone due to tax abatements accounting for 87 per cent of this figure.

    The "diesel excise gap" takes up the lions share and resulted in a massive amount of lost potential taxation over the last number of years

    As you would expect they recommend phasing out this gap over a number of years.

    On the flip side, the ever increasing carbon tax is an important source of revenue for expenditure on climate action, fuel poverty prevention and Just Transition measures with is going from 494 million in 2020 to nearly 800 million in 2022




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,154 ✭✭✭opinionated3


    There's already a thread on this revenue nonsense.....



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