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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed. **Threadbans in OP**

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Expand

    You think the case will be solved ? Needs a statement?

    If it's him Jules has to know more than she lets on



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Reminds me of another case where garddai are finally closing in on the "mastermind"

    It was mentioned that gardai put out statements saying someone knows something knowing that it may take years for a witness to come forward for various reasons

    Have they ever said that someone knows or is covering up for someone on the Sophie case , not that I recall



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    He would be the type who may want the last laugh.

    Also, I don't think that Bailey knows something or is able to contribute to any cold case investigation, albeit he may be able to point into one or the other directions.

    If he knew something he'd made it into money already, something he needs desperately, apparently, and that now, but not on his deathbed.

    There are others cashing in, making documentaries and writing books.



  • Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Benmann


    Anyone know when part three of Bailey's podcast is due? it's poor enough but I have the first two so may as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.




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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    No, I don't think so.

    I'd often thought that maybe Bailey would be the type to do a death bed confession, just with the motivation of people talking about him years after he passed away. No financial motivation, on his behalf, I'd say.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.


    Something tells me there will be a twist in this story yet



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Don't know. I think a twist may have come something like 4 to 5 years after the murder and could have made possible if there wasn't so much police corruption involved.

    Now it's probably too late with half of all involved or possibly involved under the earth already. It's likely the killer has been dead for more than a while as well.

    It's possible that the police are able to narrow the possibility of what happened, and when and the possible suspects. But all of these are various therories we've all had discussed and mentioned already.

    I doubt there will be any new revelations ( other than a published book or a tv documentary), and there will most likely never be a conviction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ms Robini




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Interesting read, and first time I've seen a photo of him.

    Are there any other statements around, Leo Bolger, Alfie Lyons, the Hellens, George Pecout etc?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I've read it as well. Suppose there is a positive match between the stain on the boot and the surviving Wollny family in Germany, it still wouldn't prove murder beyond reasonable doubt. The stain could have gotten there by other means. Suppose it was from a previous encounter? Wollny certainly can't be asked anymore..... Also did Wollny have any injuries ?

    Suppose they find the poker / hatchet, and Wollny's DNA on there, as well as Sophie's blood, that'll be very clear, I'd say. The poker / hatchet has never been located, as far as I know.

    Post edited by tinytobe on


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Probably llying at the bottom of a river or gulley somewhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Possible, and all the DNA and fingerprint evidence gone decades ago.

    Not sure. What I find hard to believe is that a propper cold case review is possible in light of all that Garda cover up and corruption having taken place in the original investigation. I don't know but any kind of twist in this story might hurt their pride. The Garda would basically have to publically admit their f-up leading to the failure of solving this crime and they certainly don't like that.

    The Guards probably talked to a few good people more, somebody in France, friends of friends here and there, maybe there is some minimal new evidence leading to a possible new theory, but nothing more. Now it's a bit late. Murderer or many who would be able to either provide an alibi are often long dead or their memory faded. Any kind of questioning and cross examination won't be anything serious anymore.

    Where were you or any of us on any given night over 25 years ago and what do you remember of that specific night? I'd say any of us would be lucky if we even get the year right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Someone remembers exactly what they were doing on that night/ morning.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Yes, but this person had no witnesses and left nothing to trace it to him. Also this person might be dead by now as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,957 ✭✭✭kirk.



    Had to be someone who knew she was there or knew her

    Lot of these cases solved many years later



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ms Robini




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's a bit hard to imagine this in this particular case.

    It would be different, if say we actually had usable DNA or fingerprint evidence on the murder weapon, but so far were unable to match it to the killer. Lot's of cases get solved this way, even 20 or 30 years later on.

    However in this case we've nothing solid, - plus a corrupt and possibly incompetent police force, or at least back then it was in this case.

    Heresay won't lead to a conviction, at least not in Irland, but apparently in France.

    Foreigners, French or possibly Mexicans driving rental or borrowed cars, various men, unshaven in dark coats loitering in alleyways and watching Sophie visiting a shop or somebody being out at Kealfadda bridge at odd hours of the night all certainly don't prove murder.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    All local vehicles in the area and of known persons should have been swabbed/checked. All air travel in the days before and after gone through.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,716 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Yes, the "golden hours" were missed. The area should have been swamped with Gardaí on the Monday and the days and weeks afterwards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    This begs the question, how serious this cold case review really is? They should have investigated in all directions back then, instead they focused on Bailey only, and as they didn't get anywhere, they tried coercing witnesses and fabricating evidence with the possible help of transients and drugs. And then the Bandon Garda station tapes came to light.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I'd say this is a hatchet rathern than a fire poke. I always understood that it was a fire poke that was missing.

    Bolger and Lyons automatically bring the "drug theory" into play. However none of them lead an above average lifesyle which would have stood out. Bolger had a bigger brush with the law than Lyons, that's known for sure. However, how come the Guards went easy on them both? Only because Bolger helped them once in a case? And where precisely did the Guards get the drugs for Martin Graham to get close to Bailey? This would beg the question what kind of thing was going on between Bolger and the Guards?

    Also, why was that Guard from Bantry who had a Fiesta never investigated? - All this pointing further towards police corruption. And the motive for police corruption would have been to cover something up, or cover for somebody, - namely the killer.

    Then regarding the out of town "hitman theory", even if you bought a halfway decent map of Ireland back then you would have been able to locate Sophie's house with considerable ease. If you didn't you were either dumb or lazy or not able to read a map at all. And then another thing: Sophie's husband would have known with certainty that Sophie would have to a very high degree been alone at her house in remote rural Ireland, if he sent a hitman. A phone call in the evening would have confirmed this with certainty. He wouldn't have done so, while Sophie was in France, far too dangerous, to easily tracable to the husband, and more than possibly, her son would have been around most of the time as well. In the end, the husband wanting to avoid a messy and costly divorce was still by far the biggest motive, - at least from a financial point of view.

    Wollny and Pecout, not certain, could have been them, same as Bailey. All possible, but all three of them don't really have a credible motive. All three of them would most likely have had a sexual motive, but again, if they wanted to sleep with somebody it would have been a rather long wait for Sophie to come for a visit from France.... There would have been other choices and not such a long wait time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 127 ✭✭Annascaul


    I think Karl Heinz Wollny and the Frenchman named Pecout are only of interest to people like Nick Foster and Jim Sheridan, wanting to sell either books or documentaries. Maybe they killed Sophie in a drunken rage and sexual desire, it's possible, but I don't think that's what happened.

    Drew Harris probably had this open and unresolved file in his office, and with a certain honesty and dignity felt, he had to follow up with a cold case review. A public excuse will most likely never happen. The pride for accepting their own mistakes are simply too high. The Bandon Garda station tapes alone should be enough to exonerate Ian Bailey completely.

    To me personally a certain stigma remained: The Guards in rural South West of Ireland are either incompetent or corrupt, or even to most likely both.

    There is the feeling of a slim chance that a blow-in is more at risk of a botched up investigation than a native to the region.

    I bet that various blow-is either considered selling their property and most likely also some not only considered but really sold their property out of fear of possibly being blamed for something they didn't do. Furthermore, a blow-in's motivation to buy a property in the South West of Ireland would be seeking wilderness, calmness, country life and due to longer absences reliable and honest neighbors, and certainly no drug trafficking and guards apparently being in on it. It would only be a deduction which would happen naturally and that the blow-ins would consider again and again, if their purchase of a property in this area was the right decision in the first place, especially in light of all the events. But I neither have prove nor insight into this one.

    But if the South West of Ireland was an entry to drug trafficking Sophie would not have been the only one noticing things. There would certainly have been others, those blow-ins who may have visited longer in any given year, with a similar experience or response with the Guards.

    Don't know how the situation regarding drug trafficking is now in South West Ireland. I am only guessing the Guards are far more competent now and the chances of them being in on it, is way slimmer than in the mid 90s.

    One other stigma also remained with me as well: The French judicial system. They convicted a man on hearsay and in absentia and lot's of reasonable doubt and absolutely no forensic evidence. Does an educated man, like Sophie's father ( he was a dentist in Paris ) really believe this? Or only pretend to do so?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,750 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    One other stigma also remained with me as well: The French judicial system. They convicted a man on hearsay and in absentia and lot's of reasonable doubt and absolutely no forensic evidence. Does an educated man, like Sophie's father ( he was a dentist in Paris ) really believe this? Or only pretend to do so?

    If I'm not mistaken, the French were given a file by the Gardai (which wasn't shared with Bailey's legal team) and the French trial was based on this file which apparently pointed the finger clearly at Bailey.

    That the DPP had already stated that there was no evidence against Bailey was ignored by AGS and subsequently the French court.



  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ms Robini


    I understand the hatchet or axe was small, with a wooden handle. From memory, based on what I’ve gleaned from Josephine Helen’s statements, the axe handle was red or painted red. It may have been disposed of in a fire, which would have destroyed the handle with the head of the axe then being found some time later among the ashes. My memory of this from the statements I’ve read is that an axe head was found in the remains of a fire by a neighbour of Ian Bailey who stated that she had not burned an axe in the fire and was suspicious as to how it came to be there. I understand this neighbour suspected Ian Bailey may have placed the item there. I believe it was handed over to the police at the time.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    I didn't know that. If true it imay be very relevant. The metal and design of the axe head could still be traced to a source?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's possible that the hatchet or the axe was actually the murder weapon, or used to deliver one or two of the initial blows and the cavity block was used later on? We don't know.

    Also, did Sophie use the hatchet or axe to arm herself as she expected something like a danger, or did the murderer enter the house and take the hatchet or axe? We also don't know.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 148 ✭✭Ms Robini




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