Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

If cycle lane bollards don't belong in Architectural Conservation Areas, why do cars?

13»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    There are places where there's enough space to park cars on the verge. Certainly don't know G.Ave enough to cherry pick a narrow section.

    But across the city that frequently choose on road cycle lanes rather than segregated infrastructure. Where is plenty of space for them. I accept it's a compromise done for expediency and may be revisited later.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Griffith Avenue now has segregated infrastructure. Its just taken space from the roadway - which was correct as there was ample space. Why on earth would it be better to have it on the path?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    "...Integrated Cycling is cycling with the general traffic, with or without marked cycle lanes.


    Segregated Cycling is cycling on dedicated cycle tracks or cycle ways that are separated from the general traffic by a physical barrier...."


    I'm not entirely sure that floppy bollards on the road with general traffic is segregated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,771 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    It's considered to be, yes. A barrier doesn't have to be continuous or rigid; a row of bollards is taken to be a barrier.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Griffith Avenue has concrete segregation? The lane is too small and not a good example, but its much better on the road than on the path.

    Floppy bollards, to somewhat return to the original point, are hopefully just temporary until better segregation can be built.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 50,356 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    one reason i'd be sceptical about griffith avenue not being suitable to on-path cycle lanes is visibility. on the assumption that if they had gone with that, the parking would have remained - so cyclists would frequently not have been visible to motorists, because they'd have a line of parked cars between themselves and the motorists, and also a line of trees too (the trees can cast significant shade when in leaf too). so a motorist turning off griffith avenue may encounter cyclists at short notice they had not seen until they'd started to make their turn.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,820 ✭✭✭The J Stands for Jay


    ..

    Post edited by The J Stands for Jay on


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "There are places where there's enough space to park cars on the verge."

    Those cars are basically parked between the trees. Basically tree surrounded by grass, then some space where a car (illegally parks), then another tree surrounded by grass. The only way to do what you are suggesting would be to bulldoze a row of trees.

    Here is an example: https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3709454,-6.234418,3a,75y,266.4h,77.78t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1sZEzH9EGOIimBMRtuLx-nPA!2e0!5s20210901T000000!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu

    The car and van are parked between the trees.

    "Certainly don't know G.Ave enough to cherry pick a narrow section."

    I live near by and walk it 3 or 4 times a day for the past 20 years. And I'm certainly not cherry picking anything!

    You should actually walk Griffith Avenue yourself and you would see for yourself that what you are suggesting isn't possible without cutting down the trees. Plus you'd have a very nice walk.

    Griffith Avenue is famous for being Europes longest double tree lined road. Cutting down trees to build a cycle lane would never be allowed. And again it doesn't need to, there is plenty of space on the road for the cycle lane, which has always been there!

    "I'm not entirely sure that floppy bollards on the road with general traffic is segregated."

    The cycle lane is separated by concrete kerbing, not floppy bollards!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,793 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Yeah no room there.

    If people are happy with it, great.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,771 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Suggestion: of the various uses to which roadway can be put, parking should probably have the lowest priority. Pedestrians, cyclists, motorists who are actually travelling and vehicle that are making deliveries or collections should all be facilitated before the provision of storage space for private property that is not currently being used.



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    Because cars aren't permanent fixtures like bollards

    You have missed the logical fallacy here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,771 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus



    There's no logical fallacy at all. Architecture doesn't just concern itself with permanent fixtures or static objects. A house is a "machine for living", and the activities that go on in a space, and the use that is made of it, are a central concern of architecture. In many ways, they're the whole point of architecture — especially so when we are talking about the architecture of public spaces, like streets.

    Parking might impact on architectural concerns in a different way to bollards, but it certainly impacts on them, and quite possibly more profoundly than bollards do.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Interestingly in Amsterdam they are currently removing a lot of on street parking (1,2000 per year, goal to remove 11,000 spaces in total), instead moving the cars to underground car parks.

    The space freed up from the remove parking is then used for little green parks, play grounds, seating for restaurants, etc.

    I'm sure you won't be surprised to hear that it leads to streets that are vastly more visually and architecturally attractive and much more liveable and safer streets.

    Before:

    After:

    Before:

    After:

    Also note the bollards to stop motorists from driving into the plants!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    There's a street near me in Eindhoven that is one of the main streets into the city.

    They are redoing it now after a large consultation period.

    Car parking is being reduced from 190 spaces to 120. Trees are being doubled. Flood defences being improved.

    Eindhoven is putting a lot of focus into greening the streets. Mainly to reduce the temperature in the city during the hotter summers but also to improve water retention during the winter to reduce flooding.

    When the people in the street we're surveyed they didn't require as much parking as was there. A lot of parking was used for staff of businesses elsewhere. The city decided this wasn't a priority and it is up those business to sort.



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    // Slow hand clap

    Stupendous way to ignore the point and go off on one

    Temporary and permanent are different, take a moment, summon up all the intellect you have and try to understand that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,771 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Of course temporary and permanent are different; that's why we have two different words for them. I'm not sure why you are banging on about a point on which no-one has disagreed with you.

    Your claim is not merely that temporary and permanent are different, but that one of them matters to architecture while the other does not. And while you have repeated the claim in various forms a couple of times, you've never bothered to explain or justify it, or offer any argument in support of it. When the claim is questioned your response is just to sneer.

    If you want to continue the conversation, you need to move on from sneering and actually offer an argument in support of your belief. Its the only way you are ever going to win acceptance for it.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Parking places are every bit as permanent as bollards.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 23,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Plus the fact that they are almost always full in the city center during the day, makes for a pretty stupid distinction!

    Like fair enough if the parking was used for like just a maximum of one hour a day, that would be temporary, but when we all know that cars are parked there all day long and if one car leaves, another will replace it within a few minutes, they clearly they create a pretty permanent visual clutter.

    Honestly I don’t see how anyone could look at the OP’s picture and not say that all the cars in the picture are what make the street look ugly and cluttered. Frankly the white bollards of the cycle lane are basically unnoticeable compared to all the cars.

    That street would look vastly more attractive if you removed all the parking and replaced it with greenery and plants like the Dutch examples I posted above. You could even remove the white bollards for the cycle lane then, as you would instead use greenery and plants as the divider between the cycle lane and the traffic lane.

    It would turn a visually very ugly street into a far more attractive place and would help open up the view of the buildings and contrast much more attractively with them.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,316 ✭✭✭VonLuck


    I am of the strong opinion that there should be zero on-street parking the majority of city centre streets, besides disabled parking. They severely detract from the area. Just look at old photos of Dublin prior to the car. It seems like a much nicer city.

    If you need to park your car, there are plenty of private car parks to avail of.



  • Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭TokenJogger


    It's the entire premise of the bollards from the op and you disagreed with it's relevance not understanding that they are different things

    I said nothing of architecture you're now making shıt up because you have lost the point and are seeking to deflect but go on spend ages straw manning and gas lighting

    I suggest you seek reference in a dictionary for the definitions are not my belief but the entire world's and it is your understanding either through deficiency or willful ignorance that is restricting any conversation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,771 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    TJ, none of this make any sense.

    I literally don't know what you mean by "the entire premise of the bollards from the op". How can bollards have a premise?

    How can you acccuse me of not understanding that permanent and temporary are different things when I have already said, in as many words, "of course permanent and temporary are different"?

    You say you said nothing of architecture, but the whole thread is about architecture - it's right there in the thread title - and you entered the thread to answer the question "why is there such a blindspot for some people to cars in Architectural Conservation Areas but plastic bollards aimed at making streets safer are a no-no?" by saying "Because cars aren't permanent fixtures like bollards". Are you now saying that in fact permanence has nothing to do with it, that your reply to the OP was not in fact answer to the question raised but more of a meaningless burble that we should all politely ignore? Because it looks a lot that that's what you're saying now.

    If you want to continue this conversation, stop with the sneering and start explaining what you mean in coherent sentences. Otherwise be quiet; the grownups are talking.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,241 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Parking spaces are permanent features if that makes it easier for the discussion.



Advertisement