Athletics 2023

SuspectZero · 22-07-2023 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882347#Comment_120882347

She split 3:50.8 last night

walshb · 22-07-2023 12:14pm

Any split time for Ciara through 1500? Must been very close to her 3:56 NR?

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 12:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882391#Comment_120882391

I am sure there a lot of PBs at the event that we didnt hear about because they werent record breaking.

We probably do need to limit the tech to an extent though.

Bannister was still running in shoes, he wasnt running on springboards.

The guys today are at the point of cheating as its kind of farcical if you follow the trajectory of development.

How long before we see sprinters with springs on their shoes?

Its ironic that we offically ban PEDS but performance enhancing equipment and tracks go unchecked.

Records dont really mean much now, sadly.

22-07-2023 12:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882527#Comment_120882527

I think you're putting too much emphasis on the shoes; what about the other events like Pole Vault, high jump?

People train a lot more and they train a lot smarter. Its very competitive and theres a lot more money put into the sport.

Its a way out of poverty etc.

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 12:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882562#Comment_120882562

All events will be impacted. If your shoes have springboards in them you will jump higher, run faster and vault further.

Its not the training that puts the springs in your shoes.

Cosmo Kramer · 22-07-2023 12:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882497#Comment_120882497

3:58:28

22-07-2023 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882573#Comment_120882573

This is just getting silly now, you're saying that the springs in the shoes are causing people to jump over bars at record breaking heights. I'm thinking Inspector Gadget now.

Lets give these athletes some credit for the training they do and their competitive spirit.

22-07-2023 1:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882527#Comment_120882527

You're demonstrating your lack of knowledge now. There already are limits put in. And improvements in shoe technology have been around as long as athletics has been a competition. When Kipsang and Kimetto set world records in back-to-back years in the Adios and Adios 2, there were plenty of articles about those shoes. The difference in level between the current crop of supershoes and the Adios is much smaller than the difference between the Adios and whatever Bannister set his record in. Are they a more substantial jump that what we've seen in the past? Yes. However, they're not some magic bullet either

Strazdas · 22-07-2023 1:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882080#Comment_120882080

Yes, that's a fair comment. Also, it can be difficult to adapt mentally to running against world class pro athletes. It's one thing running fast times on the US college circuit, but all of a sudden you're in against the big boys (or girls). It would be a bit like going from the Championship to the Premiership in English football.

SuspectZero · 22-07-2023 1:59pm

Records have always been aided by technology. When Bannister ran his sub-4, he was wearing spikes which are much faster than barefoot. Then you had the waffle racers and EVA. You've had the transition of tracks from dirt to cinder to synthetic. I'd argue that the jump from dirt to cinders and cinders to synthetic is way bigger than any of the recent track and shoe developments.

As noted above, the adizero boost was a huge improvement from traditional EVA. The actual lab numbers show that the boost was as big a jump from EVA as vaporfly was to its contemparies when it comes to economy. The only difference is that Nike are incredibly adept at marketing those differences hence why everyone talks about it now.

If you only want to talk about "pure" world records, you have to go back to barefoot on dirt as everything after that is aided. Even roadrunners where tarmac is so much faster than dirt. But you're about a 120 years too late to hop on that technological crusade

kirk. · 22-07-2023 2:09pm

Technology has changed the sport recently

There's some records which haven't changed

walshb · 22-07-2023 2:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882876#Comment_120882876

Yes, because some humans were that extraordinary. Technology helps, but a huge factor is still human physiology. I remember thinking Kevin Young’s hurdles record would be extremely challenging, and now it’s probably 9th/10th fastest ever time. 99 percent of that is down to some great “human” performances

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 2:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882614#Comment_120882614

Its not silly at all.

Biomechanics experts have stated that the super spikes are adding 1% or even 1.5% to peoples performance.

Thats huge at elite level.

Dropping a 10 flat sprinter to 9.85 to 9.90 or perhaps up to 15m in a 1500m. its downright cheating.

We've seen standard global track athletes suddenly break world records. look at Amusan's hurdle sprint record. She came out of nowhere to smash the world record whilst wearing avanti super spikes.

I think Michael Johnson even thought the timing mechanism was broke, such was the difference in performance!

We should be classifying records in a different way now. The conditions that these times are achieved in are not comprable to what we were seeing even 10 years ago.

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 2:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882705#Comment_120882705

1% to 1.5% inprovement is game changing. Its you that isnt seeing the impact here.

They may as well be running on a downhill gradient!

one thing is for sure, expect to see more records broken, but dont be too impressed when you see them.

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 2:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882843#Comment_120882843

the impact of todays super spikes has been estimated as greater than the change from cinder to synthetic.

We just need to accept that we cant compare times anymore, but then, realistically, why cant we have performance enhancing drugs also?

I am not advocating that, just posing the question.

i cant take a PED that knocks 2 seconds off my 1500 time, but i can wear a spike that takes 3 seconds off.

Hmmm.

walshb · 22-07-2023 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120882983#Comment_120882983

Well, I think humans should be allowed use anything they want (within reason) to improve.. it is what makes us human, after all.

SuspectZero · 22-07-2023 3:23pm

Is doesn't matter if its bigger than the transition from cinder to synthetic, its that tech has always aided performance. This is nothing new, the bar has always been moving.

And you can't compare shoes and tracks to drugs. For one, drugs aren't controlled just for performance, they are also controlled because of health impact. No one is going to get a pair of bad spikes that will destroy their health, while it's extremely possible to get a bottle of tainted steroids or to infuse a bag of bad blood.

Its also very easy to control and monitor the shoe market and enforce certain rules. The PED market is often black market and illegal and that brings its own issues. Anti-doping rules really only became a thing after the high profile deaths of athletes in the 50's and 60's, Tom Simpson and Knut Jensens deaths from Amphetamines.

I also wouldn't be so quick to use Amusan as your example given she is currently provisionally suspended for a doping violation.

But even look at the marathon, all the talk about supershoes even though the World Record fell more from Paul Tergats(one of the greatest runners ever) 2:04:55 in 2003 to Dennis Kimettos 2:02:57 than it did in the 9 years that have followed and with the introduction of the Vaporflys. The very minute the Adizero Boosts came on the market in the 2010's, a load of "Nobodies" were suddenly running 2:03's and 2:04's and even a 2:02(vast majority been Adidas athletes). before their introduction, those performances were extremely rare.

The difference is that everyone back then justified it as this is what happens when young guys skip track and go straight to the marathon. But the lab results have since proved that the boost shoes were a massive leap in running economy over everything else. The Adios boost gave a 10% return of energy over all its contemparies. The exact same improvement that the Vaporfly gave over its contemparies when it was released.

And tbh, I'm glad to see these old 80's and 90's track records go, given that most of them were set by out and out drug cheats who had state cover ups(Americans, Chinese and Soviet Block) and terrible drug testing protocols. Yes, some athletes are still doping today but what they can take and get away with is much more limited than it was back then.

I'd rather see shoes and tracks that everyone has access to rather than 60 haemocrites and no out of competition testing aiding them

22-07-2023 3:59pm

Heres a little titbit about Roger and his magic mile. There's even questions about his shoes 😏

I'm sticking to my thoughts that its all about competitive spirit, training and talent:

https://www.livemint.com/Sports/5rYfyuRpo9umBtuOYGDM5L/Decoding-the-science-behind-Roger-Bannisters-4minute-mile.html

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 4:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883168#Comment_120883168

Health impacts from PEDs are of course paramount.

But from a pure sporting performance perspective, if a shoe can return 85% energy and take 2 mins off your marathon time, its just as much a cheat as a PED.

Perhaps more so.

The fact the vaporfly was banned shows that at least the governing bodies acknowledged the impact and when 31 out of 36 podium marathon finishers are wearing the same shoe, you know there is a problem.

You seem quick to decry athletes from the 90s for taking drugs, but are comfortable with the same advantage given to modern day athletes through performance enhancing equipment, something WADA still have a responsibility to police.

I am glad that Seb Coe is at the helm because i am confident he wont give into a commercialisation war that prioritises big sports companies over the ethics of sport, but i do expect to see more shoes banned and records rescinded, whilst the sport catches up with technology.

The drugs are still out there too, by the way.

Dont be fooled into thinking they are not.

There are sub optimal athletes breaking world & national records.

When we are in that territory, you have to question what a record is worth.

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 4:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883324#Comment_120883324

Then you must be a Ben Johnson advocate, no?

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 4:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883127#Comment_120883127

defining the "within reason" is the difficult part.

If steroids knock 0.15 off your 100m time and you cant use them as they are banned but you can wear a spike that knocks 0.15 off your time anyway, whats the difference?

walshb · 22-07-2023 4:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883362#Comment_120883362

I’d allow anyone use any chemical drugs they want. Biggest performance enhancer in sport at present is money, and what it brings.

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883378#Comment_120883378

I think that will happen. If we dont control equipment there is no good sporting reason to ban drugs.

marathon2022 · 22-07-2023 6:06pm

The technological advancements, be it in footwear or sports surfaces, ceratinly do contribute in terms of enhancing athletic performance. However, it is essential to acknowledge that the landscape of modern athlete development encompasses various other crucial facets that contribute significantly to improvements. Areas such as nutrition, hydration, biomechanics, training methodologies, sports psychology and things like lactate threshold and how it effect performance have seen substantial progress over the past two decades and with the advent of data based assessment of these developments more athletes and coaches have access to the most up to date approaches. These advancements have played a pivotal role in increasing athletic capabilities and achieving optimal performance outcomes. All these factors together create a comprehensive and multifaceted approach towards enhancing athletic performance and overall success and will help the modern athlete beat the old records.

To solely attribute progress to technological advancements without recognizing the collective impact of advancements in other important areas of the athlete's lifestyle is simplistic and contribute nothing.

22-07-2023 6:25pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883355#Comment_120883355

I will say one thing for Ben, he at least held his hand up and openly admitted he took drugs in the most notorious drug riddled final of all time (that we know of)

I don't think one person in this thread disagrees with your point on technology but everyone is saying over again to you that theres other factors and that historically everything advances and its inevitable that the current sport will have advantages over historic sport. Its a fact of life, not cheating.

I would call it cheating if not everyone in a given race had access to the best perfornace shoes. But if everyone does then its equal footing and the best athlete on the day out of that race wins.

You'll be tying yourself up in knots with your point of view and cant be enjoying the sport with those thoughts. Time advances, things change and perfornace gets better for all kinds of reasons.

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 7:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883897#Comment_120883897

There are still rules though. We shouldnt forget that.

Everyone having the same cheating shoes isnt a valid argument. Its the same as saying everyone can take PEDs as the playing field is levelled.

It is also why the vapor shoes were banned.

The rules are there to quash the need for the kind of discussion we are having right now.

But i guess from time to time, the rules will have a black spot, as they did prior to the vapors being banned.

Where technology slips through the regulatory net.

The rules & regs will always catch up in the end. Hopefully.

Water John · 22-07-2023 8:34pm

I've watched athletics over many years. Yes, some even many have doped but Ben Johnson was on another level. He looked like a bullock in an American feedlot. Under no circumstances should doping ever be acceptable.

BlueSkyDreams · 22-07-2023 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120884301#Comment_120884301

Yes, agreed. And the yellow eyes were a dead giveaway.

But some cheats dont look that way at all.

Water John · 22-07-2023 8:43pm

Especially the ladies.

SuspectZero · 22-07-2023 9:23pm

Believe me, I'm well aware that drugs are still present in the sport but I'm also well versed in biochemistry enough to know that the impact can never be what it was like in the 80's or 90's again. The bio passport has eliminated that possibility. Yes people will still dope but with indirect parameters on blood, steroidal and hormonal profiles, the impact of undectable and detectable doping has been limited to a substantial extent. If you put up a 60 hematocrit, it doesn't matter if the drug is undetectable anymore, you're toast.

You also missed my point on accessibility. The tracks and spikes are available to anyone and they are easily regulated unlike drugs. Do you know how much HGH costs? I just looked it up and medical grade HGH costs up to 7,500 usd a month, that's 90k a year! This is just HGH alone, many athletes with heavy backing and a willingness to destroy themselves in a drug Arms race could spend 100's of thousands on doping thus making elite sport nothing more than who can throw the most money at the sport. And this is disregarding health impact(which is impossible). Most of these drugs are illegal too without medical clearance and the laws differ from country to country thus adding even more accessibility and complexity issues.

I get what you are trying to say but I think it's what they call a scientific false equivalence. You are looking through a historical lens which is the one lens on shoes and tracks effect. But doping not only unevens the historical perspective, it also unevens the current generation which the shoes and tracks don't. Hence its a false equivalence.

I'm sorry to tell you but the only pure performance in your perspective is barefoot on dirt but that's not realistic, every sport has evolved technologically since the 19th Century. And technology has played a part for every decade since.

I personally have always found it weird that people have such an issue with the superspikes and supershoes as they are called because of how quick it progressed. Would it have been fine if Nike dripfed the tech and the same result happened but it took 10 years?

To me 10 is still 10 whether its 5x2 or 2+2+2+2+2.

The fact remains that tech would've still contributed to those old records being smashed and has numerous times throughout history as have been brought up in examples throughout this thread whether it took 5 years or 15 years.

yerwanthere123 · 23-07-2023 2:03pm

London diamond league now live on BBC one and YouTube. Last one before Budapest, so one to watch.

Highlight for me is the women's 5k, great field with Hassan, Tsegay and Chebet all lining up. Very curious to see what Haylom and Getachew can do also, should be a good one!

yerwanthere123 · 23-07-2023 2:11pm

51.45 for Femke Bol! 😱

Cosmo Kramer · 23-07-2023 2:46pm

A very decent 3:32 for Coscoran but only good enough for 14th of 15 finishers all the same. Standards are high.

joe35 · 23-07-2023 9:38pm

Enjoyed a great day at the DL in London. Pity only 3 Irish athletes competing, Coscoran, Michelle Finn in the steeplechase and a wheelchair athlete in the 800, sorry I forget her name. She finished 4th.

Was good to see all this talent and what was great about it was how efficiently it was run. Time seemed to fly with everything on schedule.

Hamachi · 23-07-2023 11:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120886373#Comment_120886373

Phenomenal run. I’d love to see what she could run in a flat 400m in this form. Almost certainly sub-49.

I wonder how close she can get to Sydney’s WR in Budapest.

It was also good to see Gemma Reekie finding good form again after struggling with glandular fever for a couple of seasons.

24-07-2023 9:46am

The 5000m is going to be super competitive for the world championships with potentially: Tsegay, Kipyegon, Hassan, Giday, Chebet, Obiri.

Anyone know the lineup for that race yet?

walshb · 24-07-2023 4:24pm

Anyone a vibe on Jakob’s 2000 metres WR attempt Brussels September? Break El Gs record?

Fox Tail · 24-07-2023 4:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120883815#Comment_120883815

It may be simplistic, but its what most people think. And as you say, its certainly contributory to the performance so it does "shadow" the positive aspects somewhat.

24-07-2023 5:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120888344#Comment_120888344

Yeah one minute you're watching a sprint and next a high jump. No gaps in time. Best way to keep the crowd interested. 👍

yerwanthere123 · 24-07-2023 6:48pm

Some delayed Diamond League comments..

So delighted for Femke Bol to finally hit sub 52, and what a time to do it. Now the second fastest performer in history, and with McLaughlin only running the 400m flat at worlds, she should win her first world title without breaking too much of a sweat. Sydney's WR feels too out of touch to be troubled, but you never know.

The women's 5000m was a very exciting race. Happy to see Hassan get a big PB, but she'll be less thrilled about being outkicked by both Tsegay and Chebet. Hassan seems to be missing some finishing speed since the Olympics/marathon training, and her kick isn't quite as effective. Can still close in 61, but might need another second or two to get gold. I'd still make her the favourite in the 10,000, but for the 5000 I'd say it's Kipyegon-Tsegay-Hassan in that order. Given how loaded the 5k is I think Tsegay would be foolish not to run the 10k also, but I guess a lot of it depends on whether she's allowed.

Brilliant time for Alicia Monson too. One of the fastest women to ever run 5,000m... yet would need a miracle to medal in the event.

Jackline Chepkoech joins the sub-9 club and in the process must be the favourite for Budapest. Been a bit of weird year for the steeple and nobody's shown much, but with Jeruto banned and Getachew not allowed run it's looking very open. Yavi has only ran 9:04 so far and Abebe hasn't broken 9:10, Beatrice Chepkoech might fancy her chances getting among the medals again.

Strong men's 1500m, Coscoran runs 3:32 and finished 14th! First DL win for Nuguse, definitely in with a medal shot at worlds. Jakob is obviously the clear gold favourite, Katir probably favourite for silver, but the men's bronze could be up for grabs from quite a few.

Another win for Lyles in the 200m. Will be very hard to stop him in Budapest, although Tebogo could run him close. Would love to see him lose tbh, guy comes cross like a dick. I know some love that whole cocky/sledging thing that some do, but I don't see the appeal.

Nice to see Van Niekerk and Reekie gets the wins also. A medal would seem a stretch for Reekie given the strength of the competition, but good to see her approaching her best again.

yerwanthere123 · 28-07-2023 9:58pm

Both Mageean and Adeleke out of the national championships at Santry tomorrow, very disappointing.

Strazdas · 28-07-2023 10:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910212#Comment_120910212

Very unfortunate : Rhasidat has been in Dublin all week, so must have become unwell / unfit to race at the last moment.

deisedude · 29-07-2023 6:20pm

Underwhelming enough first day at the national championships with bad weather and missing heavy hitters.

Eric Favors throwing a championship record in the shot put being the main highlight just shy of 20 metres in 19:91 if I remember correctly

Obviously the majority of the action is tomorrow

Larbre34 · 30-07-2023 8:13pm

Women's track is in rude health you'd have to say.

Sarah Lavin with three PBs for the weekend, a women running on grit and emotion at the moment after a tragic year.

Sharlene Mawdesley blowing away the 400 field in the absence of Rhasidat.

And thats among a scatter of dropping times in horrible conditions, with some juniors putting their hands up for national selection very soon.

We're going to have some very competitive relay teams in the big international meets coming up.....

Strazdas · 30-07-2023 8:17pm

Great race between Sarah Healy and Sophie O'Sullivan in the 1500m with Healy outsprinting the latter in the last 40m. There's not a huge difference between these two in class judging by their two most recent races.

yerwanthere123 · 30-07-2023 8:18pm

Glad Sarah got the win there. She slowed way down on the penultimate lap that I thought she was gonna let Sophie back into it. Hopefully a bit of a confidence booster.

Strazdas · 30-07-2023 8:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120917613#Comment_120917613

Yes, great for her confidence. But Sophie seems to be improving quickly too - beat Sarah last time and got close enough to her this evening.

rovers_runner · 30-07-2023 9:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120910212#Comment_120910212

Eyes on the prize you'd have to say, world's too close for a wet and windy Santry.

Hamachi · 30-07-2023 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120917588#Comment_120917588

The two 400m winners were the highlights for me. For Sharlene Mawdsley to run sub-52 and Chris O’Donnell to run sub-46 in those appalling conditions, was very impressive. I’m convinced Sharlene Mawdsley has the ability to run 50.xx.

I wonder what Sarah Lavin could run for the flat 100m in decent conditions? I reckon 11.3x is in her wheelhouse.

On the flip side, I was concerned to see Andrew Coscoran fading to fourth over 800m. I know it’s not his primary distance, but that can’t be good for his confidence going into Budapest.

Sarah Healy was determined to take the win today. She was running on pure hate down that final straight. Hopefully, that victory, plus seeing Ciara Mageean performing at the very highest level, gives her a much needed infusion of confidence going into worlds.

ariana` · 31-07-2023 8:53am

I enjoyed the Womens 5000m, delighted for Ide Nic Dhomhnaill to take the title, a 38yr old mum of 2! I wonder if she's doing Dublin this year? She could be a contender for the national title there too.

There was a lot riding on that for Sarah Healy. I think, losing it would have broken her. She was badly knocked losing in the U23s, hopefully it will spur her and Sophie on now. Anyone else thing Sophie looks a little awkward running - her shoulders seem hunched or something, I thought she didn't look as fluid as Sarah but maybe she just tightened up due to the pace? She was very gracious in defeat, she's a breath of fresh air, with her naturally beaming smile.

I loved watching Sarah Lavin too, her strength to come up through the field in the 100m flat. I hope she has a great Worlds.

Athletics 2023

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