Cost of a United Ireland and the GFA

Some of you questions are puzzling.

I completely understand that many Irish people see the whole island as part of the Irish nation. That’s a very reasonable point of view. I am part of the British nation and I believe that is also a very reasonable point of view.

st Patrick’s day means nothing to me and tbh I don’t know a single unionist who attends at Patrick’s day functions. It looks like a very alien environment - I guess a bit like you attending an event celebrating Britishness and everyone dressed in rw&b and waving union flags. Again I think it’s absolutely to be admired that Irish people celebrate their identity that day.

the bit about Scot’s and Scottish. I see that exactly the same as me referring to myself as northern Irish.

I agree that me living in a Ui is a bit like a remain voter living in an independent Scotland.

The gfa has a unionist veto enshrined in it.

The GFA doesn't have a Unionist veto over Unification, Downcow.

What a horribly insular way to think

Regarding paragraph one. It is not a case of seeing it is factual that the irish nation comes from or based on having some connection to Ireland. I would point out a nation is a group of people of common culture not a territory of land. A person who's national identity is irish from Cork is no more or less irish than someones whos national identity is irish from Down. As discussed yesterday the national identity "irish only" will be the highest national identity in the next census of the OWC.

Regarding paragraph 2. I bring up Patrick to show how stupid the "I am not irish i am British" binary line is. There is no national patron saint of the British. This is where the nation of nations comes in. Even under british tradition people from Ireland are irish aswell hence why the 17th March is the OWC national holiday. Again have you ever herd of a Scot saying they're not Scottish, they're just British. This happens here because of the sectarian environment that arrived after partition.

A unionist going to a St.Patricks day event is not the same as me going to a British event. St. Patrick is the national patron of all the people from Ireland including unionists and is celebrated by the church of Ireland. I am not British so me going to a exclusive British is not equivalent.

Apologies. What I meant is that people can jump up and down all the like but they can not have a Ui until the people of ni are convinced that is in their best interests

Apologies that you think that sounds horrible. Let me give some context.  

I have lived all my life in an area which republicans have dominated.  For me that has been 30 years of violence and intimidation by republicans to get our identity (us) to go away, followed by 25 years of same thing without the direct physical violence.  I am rural farming community and we were the only unionists to stay around; the rest moved to towns and villages they perceived as out of reach of republicans and safer.  I know their stories and I support their decisions. My parents encouraged me to move when I had come of age, but supported my decision to stay when they saw it was made. I also understand my parents desire, as eg the routine when I was a kid was if there was a knock on the door after dark, we all went upstairs, my dad got the shotgun loaded and my mum edged the window open and that’s how communication took place.

I can deal with all the **** ok and quality of life is good. The most difficult things though have been when authority decides that nationalism is in control and flexes its muscles.  eg when republicans couldn’t prevent our culture being displayed through threat and violence, they got the parades commission to do it. 

I have always regarded this as my area, my town and proud to live here, but that has changed somewhat in the last year or two.  Our council is rolling out Irish language signage across mixed areas. It is causing serious community disharmony and I said recently to someone that this is the first time in my life that I feel not wanted by authorities in my area.  We still have, Irish tricolours, Starry Ploughs etc flying, Tiocfaidh ár lá and KAH (kill all huns) etc written on walls, and we get the low level crap of kids having to be steetwise on buses etc where they are heavily outnumbered, but the huge difference is that in our minds that it is a minority of republicans - the Ira-types forced to move to other tactics. But when you have that **** and then you have authority (which should be non-partisan) lining up beside the bullies, then it gets into your head more.

bottom line is, I wouldn’t head into a Ui living in a republican area, not a chance. Not doing that again.

Transforming to a Ui and losing much of what is precious to us will have to be taken on the chin - but it is inevitable that that very process will heighten our sense of difference and we will move to areas where we can openly be what we want. I’ve never flown a flag from my house, been in a band, OO, etc. I would expect that all to change if we were forced into a Ui.

I am trying not to be offensive with how I write this

If any community in the world gets suppressed or feels threatened and feels alienated from those in power, what happens? Black, Asian etc in London. They are inclined to focus in ghettos for both cultural and security reasons. Why would it be any different in ni

Both communities in ni have created this difficult situation. I don’t fear it because I very much doubt there will ever be a Ui and they type of Ui may mitigate against some of the above.

You are very stuck in your thinking.

I am not Irish. You can wish me to be Irish all you want it won’t change it. I am northern Irish, British, European, white, male, Protestant, Presbyterian, etc etc, but I am not Irish. My passport says I am British, the UN accept I am British. Every nation in the world I visit regards me as British. I feel British.

what bit of this do you not understand.

my next door neighbour can legitimately say all the same stuff re being Irish.

Re st pats day

again I think you don’t understand the cultural differences. It may be a religious thing, but I don’t know any Protestants who are bothered about st Patrick’s day, other than the orange order. They hold a few poorly attended parades. The Royal Irish also have an event but it comes and goes.

it is only very recently a public holiday. In my workplace the majority don’t take it. Several nationalists are more likely to take the next day as they recover from an enjoyable night partying.

in a sense it’s a bit like the twelfth ie one community celebrates it and the other hardly notices it. That’s not to suggest anyone is anti it, it just is a non event.

I actually don’t know if Scotland, England or wales make a big deal of their Saints day. I guess st Patrick’s day is huge because Ireland is a very religious country historically

I was responding to what I thought was a suggestion that Ui was coming whether or not. My answer was clumsy. I am pointing out that the gfa gave the ni population have a veto on this and there is no likely scenario of that veto being in favour of leaving the Uk. Roi also have a veto.

In the event that Unification should occur, the majority of the NI population would self evidently not be Unionist, so devolution couldn't possibly hold onto control/power for Unionism. A devolved NI or a federal solution built around the 4 provinces as floated by some doesn't have to be built in the same flawed way that the current NI devolved government is. A devolved government isn't inherently unworkable.

I find the idea that there won't at least be a period of devolution post Unification to be pretty unlikely.

The claim of one person, Francie. Downcow doesn't speak on behalf of all Unionism.

Some in Unionism may not be interested, so what? You can't please all the people all the time as they say. There is a cohort who will be unhappy regardless, but we should still make efforts to minimise the size of that cohort with reasonable, magnanimous compromise.

We would be a minority so that’s nonsense. Is it an attempt to hold on to the northern Irish culture/identity/etc. yes probably, but you should fear that

None of your post is true. It would be up to the majority nationalist population to demonstrate that we could have our culture and identity and live among you and that you won’t abuse your power. But it would require fairly urgent reaching out before a movement began. I have zero faith that the attitudes of republicans in my area would change overnight.

And fionn is absolutely right. I only speak for myself and attempt to reflect the views of unionists I know personally.

im curious, do you blame many of the ethnic groups on England for clustering? Could English people have done more 50 years ago to prevent that happening? You would have a great chance in a new Ui to reach out and minimise movement- my thought is you wouldn’t. My thought is that republicans would be more interested in flag waving cavalcades to rub unionists nose in it.

the challenge will be yours. It won’t be our country, we’ll just be living in it. You will have won and got you country. I think the onus is on you to go the extra mile and make it work. Unfortunately for you, I doubt if many unionists will care if it works. We will, in our eyes, just have lost. I don’t think many will leave immediately, but we do have that fairly easy fallback position.

Francie I completely understand why many nationalists didn’t regard the ni pre 1980s as not their country. I think we have now a situation where the vast majority of residents, both unionists and nationalists feel it is our country. Unfortunately a Ui will put unionists where nationalists were pre 1980 (approx)