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Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    And where does it overlap with "female" sports etc.

    Using "male" alongside "women" is what is nonsensical and confused.

    Under no circumstances should males be allowed to compete in womens sports. 



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A woman is an adult human female.

    Therefore woman and female are interchangeable in a discussion about humans.

    A womans sport, or womans category in a sporting event, is one which is open to women (adult human females) only.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You say they're interchangeable but clearly interchangeability of terms is at the core of this trans panic thread.

    So as I said, it's very puzzling why it's "males" and then "women."

    There are many examples of "Womans sports" which are open to women who do not fit your narrow descriptor of a woman. So I don't find your definition very useful.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    My descriptor of woman is not "narrow", it is scientifically accurate. If you don't find scientific accuracy to be useful then you are a crank.

    The reason why the interchangeability of these terms is puzzling to you is because those behind the transgender agenda engineered it so. Step one of their agenda began with coining the term transwoman and transman. These terms are backwards.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    My descriptor of woman is not "narrow", it is scientifically accurate. If you don't find scientific accuracy to be useful then you are a crank.

    So, your assertion now is that the scientific definition of woman now is "adult human female?" I'd love a receipt for that because it doesn't sound accurate. I definitely appreciate scientific accuracy - and that, is not accurate. Science is neither so reductive, nor in such a consensus about such a reductive answer.

    The reason why the interchangeability of these terms is puzzling to you is because those behind the transgender agenda engineered it so.

    Trans panic then indeed, what is the agenda? Who are these crack team of engineers? Boogety boogety boogety.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You have linked to a bunch of woke nonsense. You are anti-science. It's why your stance is so incoherent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You’ve lost the argument if you think the AMA = woke science.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A few posts ago you were complaining about the "appeal to authority fallacy". Now you are posting links to woke nonsense, and thinking that has 'won you the argument'.

    As I said, incoherent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    You accused me of not caring about scientific accuracy, so I pointed to a body of scientific consensus in the field of medicine.

    You're equating THIS to the utter hearsay passed off by an Olympian? You have no standing to accuse me of incoherency, clearly.

    No receipt from you I see.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You did not "post to a body of scientific consensus". You posted links to an editorial on nature and an article on a LGTBQ+ entertainment website. And some nonsense from the AMA which is a trade association.

    Almost everything you post is nonsense or straight-up lies. I get that it's very difficult to argue such an illogical position, i'm sure you are trying your best. But you are failing badly.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Oh no, I am so sorry!

    So, you will show me up now, with your receipts showing this is a very accurate scientific description? According to who? Third post now that you've dodged your own burden of proof.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And where does it overlap with "female" sports etc.

    There is no overlap. "Female" is a term of gender social construction.

    Women's sport is for biological women only. No exceptions. No dilution of the rule.

    Yes, that may hurt some people's feelings. You know what, I don't care. The feelings of biological women athletes are the only feelings that matter.

    Gender is not sex.

    Nobody cares what someone identifies as, it doesn't make the identification real.

    Sport is defined by biological sex. Anyone "offended" by that, or who claim it is "bigoted", are the ones we ought to offend. Because if we are offending them, it means we are saying something right.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    None of this waffle elucidates why there was no consistency, eg. 'men don't belong in womens sport' or 'males dont belong in females sports' instead it was 'males don't belong in womens sports' just weird and suggests a division in how people are regarding the two sexes, genders, etc. here. One in more personalizing terms (Men) the other in distancing/neutral terms (female)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Originally we were told that "sex and gender are different" by activists. I agreed with them.

    But then they demanded of us -- literally demanded -- that sex and gender mean the equivalent thing, so that transgender women (biological males) should be able to compete with women. That's when the trick crossed the line.

    More and more people are now waking up to this sleight of hand. It's pretty clever when you think about it.

    But it's a disgraceful sleight of hand. It has no chance of succeeding, none - zero, zilch, nada. More sporting organizations have woken up from the social pressure they were subjected to.

    People were understandably afraid years ago to tackle the ideological nonsense that was imposed upon them. Those days are over.

    Thank goodness for that. The sooner the ideologues are not listened to, just ignored, the better for everyone.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's ironic, to say the least.

    But which part of what I described do you disagree with?



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I didn't agree or disagree with your content. I assessed whether your content even began to explain why so often it is "Men" and "Female" but not "Men" and "Women" or "Male" and "Female" from the same caucus of contributors who in all appearance stand opposed to the "activists" you seemingly refer to with the idea of equivocating these terms.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Richard Dawkins' assessment of the deliberate misinformation on this subject is highly, highly elucidating.




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Was anyone in this thread making the claim that there was a higher number of intersex persons than redheads? What does this have to do with anything re: "men ... female"



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Dawkins was addressing the deliberate misinformation about the non-existence of the "sex binary" that pervades the question of sporting fairness.

    As usual, he's spot on.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    How do you know?

    What does this have to do with anything re: "men ... female"



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,436 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    You're getting very hung up on this

    Under no circumstances should males be allowed to compete in womens sports

    I'd presume it was phrased that way, using males instead of men, for clarity.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,679 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    Surely there are sports where the sex of the participant doesn't matter, physically?



  • Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭taxAHcruel


    There probably is I am sure. But it is surprisingly difficult to identify and find any.

    Take snooker for example. I was surprised recently to find that World Championship Snooker at the Crucible is actually not a Male only affair. It is entirely open to the Female Sex too. So I googled a little and I found stuff like this:

    https://www.quora.com/Why-are-women-not-competitive-with-men-in-snooker

    So while there are some acknowledged barriers to why women are not as competitive or numerous both historically and at present - it's still true that mentally and physically the average male and female are not on the same playing field even in something as relatively laid back as snooker. It is a surprisingly physically and mentally demanding game. And physical advantages exist in things like height too. There is nothing in theory stopping any woman from entering the World Snooker Tour and arriving in the crucible and lifting the world championship trophy. I simply do not expect to see it in my lifetime however.

    So while there may exist sports where equal competition between the biologically binary sexes of our species is possible I can not think of one off the top of my head. Lawn bowling is a sport I know literally nothing about. Perhaps that one?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,679 ✭✭✭suvigirl


    Yes, I read that about snooker too, but it is open to women, if they're just not as good, maybe it's down to other things, young girls not being introduced to the sport? Not getting training? Just not being the norm in society?

    Snooker, all types of bowling, darts, shooting, archery,chess etc there is many sports that can be done by both.

    Not sports that depend on physical attributes though. I believe that should be governed by the sporting bodies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭taxAHcruel


    Yes indeed - that is what I meant when I wrote "So while there are some acknowledged barriers to why women are not as competitive or numerous both historically and at present". There are barriers there socially and historically which mean Women have been less likely to compete in great numbers. Including the things you just listed. Not least of which it has just been historically a guy thing culturally.

    They are discussed at length in the links I put in the post above. But there are women competing in it. They just do not attain very high levels in the world rankings. And even if the number of women competing multiplied 100 fold over the next decade and money was thrown at it - I would not expect them to eviscerate the rankings either. But I would look forward to being corrected on that. More women at the Crucible would be great to watch.

    Do not underestimate chess either :) One of the reasons given for why women have an issue at snooker against men is the length of the matches. The sheer gruel of hours long play at the highest levels (First to 18 frames in the world final for example - after grueling days of play just to get to that final in the first place) is very physically and mentally demanding. Chess no less so for the same reasons. Chess might look like simply sitting in a chair relaxing to the uninitiated. But I have seen people collapse after an intense game and I have one friend who on occasion wins competitions and having done so goes home and sleeps for 20 hours straight. It's _ exhausting _ and any physical advantage is going to play into that.

    And archery is something I engage in both for sport and at times in hunting. A powerful bow is highly physically demanding. If I go out and practice for an hour or two tonight - I will have serious muscle aches in surprising places tomorrow. Muscles I did not even know I had in the past hurt when I first took up the sport. And if competition is long enough that physical fatigue sets in then that will play into your mental accuracy and your ability to line up a shot and more. I have a oneida kestrel bow for anyone who is into that kind of thing. I have killed targets with it and I have killed animals with it. It is not an undemanding pursuit.

    I would be wary of your phrasing though where you wrote "can be done by both". I doubt you meant anything by that, it is just how you wrote it. But to be vicariously pedantic - which a lot of people on a thread like this can often be - I would be the last person who would suggest any sport can not be done by both. Specifically the question is about them competing against each other. But I struggle to think of any sport on the planet that can not be "done by both". They all can. Including MMA which is probably one of the most physically demanding sports on the planet. Short of Penis Fencing (please tell me this is not a sport hehehehe) I would like to think there is not a single sport on the planet not open to female participation and competition.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,791 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    You will never see a women good enough to play at the crucible.

    One game where women have got some good results in the past few years is 9 ball pool.

    Not exactly going close to winning tournaments but players beating top ranked men.

    It seems to be getting more popular so maybe in a few years a women can make the breakthrough.

    Height doesn't really play a part and you are not travelling nearly every week like for snooker.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,997 ✭✭✭✭chopperbyrne


    Typical male physical advantages would absolutely be a factor in those you listed, except chess.

    Height and reach are huge advantages in snooker. The tables may look small on television, but they're just under 12' x 6'

    Being able to consistently use heavier balls with a hard throw, and more grip and arm strength to generate more spin are advantages in bowling.

    Height and reach are advantages in darts too. The bullseye is 5'8" from the floor, so would be above the majority of women's heads.

    Shooting and archery would depend on the height of the targets and how long the competition went for, but typically a male frame would take more strain.

    Even things like motor racing, the stresses put on the body is why there has only ever been 5 women F1 drivers, and none since 1992. 29 starts between them.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I phrased it this way because

    1. In the common vernacular we talk about men and womens sports. If we look at entry forms, WR lists, etc. They always use these terms.
    2. If I say "only women should enter womens sports" then that poster will surely say some nonsense about how "transwomen are women" etc. So I am being very clear, biological males should not enter womens sports regardless of how they identify

    On the topic of why womens sports are not referred to as female sports.. for the entirety of human history until recently it was not necessary to clarify. It was universally understood that when you say women/woman you are referring to biological females. So it was the common vernacular, it was how sports were named, entry rulesets were written.

    It's only very recently that adherents of a particular ideology succeeded (partially) in muddying the waters and allowing all this nonsense. The fact that someone thinks mixing gender and sex in a sentence is some clever gotcha is absurd. This entire topic is absurd. Never in my life did I think I would have to explain why males should not be allowed enter womens sporting contests.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 82,510 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I’d say it’s a lot easier for a man to practice ball and table games at the pub than it is for a woman to practice at a pub - at least without routine harassment. Lot of social barriers to entry in the sport, easier for males to have a lifetime of frequent experience playing the game.



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