Doping megathread - I can't even think of a witty tagline

They’re all at it, close thread.

I see that the UCI has finally suspended Lopez from racing.

Be careful what you wish for. There's a reason that "The Clinic" on CN is known as "the asylum".

"But it wasn't illegal then so we did nothing wrong"

Neither is entirely true.

The WADA Prohibited List may include any substance and methods that satisfy any two of the following three criteria:

It has the potential to enhance or enhances sport performance;

 It represents an actual or potential health risk to the Athlete;

 It violates the spirit of sport (this definition is outlined in the Code).

So take the example of caffeine - it is an ergogenic aid, so it meets the first criterion but tends to fall down on the second and third, hence its no longer on the list (at least for the moment - it is currently on the Monitoring list, but you cannot be busted for it).

Himself and Pogacar were miles ahead of the rest; with the exception of the TT where Vinegaard was way ahead of Pogacar (who was having a bad day) who also was way ahead of field.

A lot of Vinegaards advantage was eeked out through improvements unrelated to power.

Both riders (it appears in the absence of power data) to be at Armstrong/Patani levels of performance for GC days in tour.

Can improvements in bike design, training methods, nutrition etc explain how clean athletes can do that? I don't know.

Are they doping out of season and being smarter in racing season? What doctor are they using? How do you keep it under wraps?

I'm long since over really caring, it's great entertainment either way. Pro sport is the wrong place to look for heroes

Fcuk it the best interview I've ever read or heard (in any field sport, politics, art etc) comes out of one of cyclings most notorious sons; Kimmage's full interview of Landis. 34 A4 pages of an insight into a most complex human we wouldn't have got without the doping.

"Say it ain't so Tadej, say it ain't so" I wonder will we have ever utter those words some day

And cake. Don't forget the cake.

Dopecycle, a pun on Dopesick, was right there.

Yeah you are right. I thought I had read somewhere the test was 95 percent accurate and that a failure would trigger further investigation.There's no easy answer

That's a fair point. Put another way (and considering the extent to which even club cyclists wet themselves over talk of 'aero') if Pog had been at the top of his game on the day - i.e. not coming out of an injury-hit Tour preparation, not having pushed harder in the preceding stages (as against Vingo who was much more conservative and tended to stay behind his Doms well into almost every stage), and not been flahed looking on the bike for the TT - he'd have been much closer to Vingo. Maybe only lost 30 seconds or so. I think it's fair to say that with the performance Vingo pulled out on the day and given that the stage probably suited him better than Pog anyway, Pog was never going to beat him. Would we then be talking about both riders performances being suspect because they're so far ahead of the other GC contenders and TT specialists?

A propos nothing in particular - This graph shows the time gap between Vingo and the other riders on the TT. Apart from both Vingo and Pog being outliers, WVAs performance wasn't that far removed from the riders down to ~ 10th place and, in general, there is a nice steady progression through the field

This is the equivalent graph for last years ITT, won by Wout. (Note that because of the congestion on the X-axis, only every second name is shown).

I wouldn't say Pog had a bad performance. But I don't think he had a good performance.

There's a difference between saying he had an off day - i.e. not at his best - and put in a bad performance. I don't think I've seen any sane person suggest his performance was bad. Plenty - me included - think it was below his optimum. Vingo on the other hand had one of those performances which athletes can produce every now and then where they smash/ narrowly exceed their optimum.

I just think people are putting too much emphasis on one TT stage in the third week of a GT to insinuate dodgy dealings in JV.

Just listened to Escape Collective podcast on the TT with Ronan McLaughlin with an aero nerd as his guest. Assuming that JV had one of or the lowest CDA in the Tour, they estimated his power at 390 on flat and 430 on climbs. If he’s 60kg that’s over 7w/kg mid-TT, in the third week of GT.

The questions apply to Pog also but Pog has done TTs of that level before whereas this is a new high for Jonas.

As linked above, Vinga’s projected power was calculated to be well above 7w/kg for a considerable part of the TT. From what I’ve read/heard, 7.4 is the figure that’s generally accepted. That’s taking performance to another level and there’s genuine interest to see how’s Jumbo/Vinga have managed it.

When asked, the Jumbo boss Plugge went into defensive mode, deflecting the questions and pointing to the sloppiness of other teams, even remarking that he spotted FDJ on beer beer in their hotel 🤣🤣

Vinga’s Power data from the TT would be helpful but fat chance of that

It is guess work, but educated guess work.

I read that Escape Collective article that Ronan McLaughlin wrote. Very good article. One thing that struck me though, that didn't sit well, was the pacing based on RPE. I call nonsense on this. I just can't imagine a pro cyclist, aiming to win the TdF, not having the wattage he aims to ride at already pre determined for a TT. Jumbo Visma seemingly left nothing to chance so why on earth would he then set off and pace his ride off RPE?

But let's just say they just did that in training and he used power to control his effort in the actual TT. This doesn't sit right either. There is no way a pro rider maintains a pace of 20 watts above his intended target. Vingo said he had a figure of 360 watts in his head for the flat but averaged 380. Surely he must have thought that any prolonged period of effort that's 20 watts above what he thought he was capable of would not be sustainable and he'd have to back off before he tanked?

20 watts is a huge amount though once above threshold, but yes, he was obviously on a great day

There's no accepted level but there's a known level that has been achieved in the past, for sure. It would be interesting to compare Vinga's TT effort to that.

1) I've no idea. No background in pharma/medicine. Historically, teams have been one step ahead in terms of treatments/methods of administration, though.

2) The testing regime is flawed. Always has been. Riders have a biological passport so their blood levels are tracked over time but at no time are required to provide power data. That doesn't make sense to me.