Munster Team Talk Thread - New season title pending....

You keep mentioning guaranteed 1st choice for Edinburgh (vs down the Munster pecking order), but the draw of International rugby was clearly the bigger motivator for him. Like I said earlier:

Evidenced by the fact he was immediately called into the Scotland 6 Nations squad after it was announced he was leaving, and made his debut while still at Munster (which, iirc at the time, I think you suggested you didn’t think this was likely?)

Out of interest I went back to check, and you went even further than suggesting it was just unlikely:

I don't think it matters tbh. It would be astonishing management if Scotland called Healy up.

The fact he was called in immediately tells us exactly all we need to know about his motivations for the move.

Which is the reason he left. It wasn't due to where he was or wasn't in the pecking order at Munster.

The pecking order at Munster can hardly have helped though. Its a rather different scenario to think you can break into the Irish squad eventually when you are first choice for a side versus being completely leapfrogged by a relative newbie.

He's ultimately obviously correct that its easier to get international rugby with Scotland, cause Scotland are terrible. It doesn't, as of yet, mean anyone in the Irish coaching team made a mistake. There are only so many caps to give and the choice between Healy and HB seems much of a muchness to me (the Frawley thing I don't get, but I assume he's very much as a cover player to play midfield also).

Now, one intriguing counterfactual would be what would have happened had he been brought into training squads but never capped.

He’s played for Scotland before he’s ever played for Edinburgh.

It’s pretty clear International rugby was the draw, and a move to Edinburgh facilitated that, not the other way round.

Bent played for Ireland before Leinster, doesn't mean international rugby was the draw...

Like, obviously, it was a large part of it. But I think its a bit silly to completely discard the notion that playing second fiddle to two separate players at Munster (one younger and less experienced) didn't have an impact. If for no other reason then his pretty clear placing at Munster would also indicate his international chances were limited.

I'm sure. No one moves to play for Edinburgh, let's be realistic.

But I think his position at Munster would have been a significant factor in determining his international career was not likely to take off in Ireland. It would be one thing, in a post-Sexton world, to be one of 4 first choice fly halves playing. Its a very different thing to be 2nd choice at your province, particularly to someone younger. Even with a different coach in Ireland it would make things less likely.

My original point, which I pretty much stand by, is that Munster clearly don't see Healy as a top level international player either, or he wouldn't have fallen so easily and quickly behind Crowley.

It's entirely possible they saw both as an international level prospect, but thought Crowley had an even higher celiing than Healy. They're not mutally exclusive. Like I said, if Healy had stayed, I think it's fair to say Munster would have been the most well-stocked province at 10.

But I think his position at Munster would have been a significant factor in determining his international career was not likely to take off in Ireland.

His lack of involvement in even a training camp, when he's seen other players in 3rd and 4th choice at Leinster (the latter who doesn't even really play 10 for Leinster) getting selected (and like I said, even Jake Flannery in the EI tour), is way more an indicator that his international career was not likely to take off, imo.

Yeah, that's fair. He announced it earlier than I realised.

And Munster....3rd choice Munster players were involved, they just got picked ahead of him

So you could equally make the argument he left cause Farrell picked Crowley ahead of him? Does anyone think that was the wrong call?

Very much the latter. I think it’s pretty clear those players would’ve been 1st choice for Munster regardless of the EI tour.

What I meant by “no difference to the Provinces” was in relation to our results during the EI tour.

I'm sceptical whether Munster benefitted due to the disruption at the start of the season and their terrible opening to the URC campaign. Ireland definitely benefitted though, as did some of the players in terms of their international careers and possibly the training/exposure they got.

No, I'm not and nor would I ever use such kind of language. And yes, Crowley was a "relative" newbie - 15 appearances with 5 starts vs 40 appearances and 18 starts coming into the last season.

Good luck to him in Scotland, but the reason he has a shot there and not in Ireland is because Scotland are not very good.