Struggling with fitness...

DaveyDave · 28-07-2023 9:25pm #1

Going to Ballinastoe the last two months now, no matter what trails I'm doing I'm pretty much done after about 60-70 minutes of cycling time.

I start with the first few blue trails then take the gravel road up to Zipper, then a red trail back to the blue loop to finish at the car park. Going once or twice a week, I was hoping I'd be fit enough to do a second lap of the red but the climb back up from the Expressway area just kills me.

I have a base level of fitness but having a big gut these days certainly doesn't help. I think one of the issues is my mind sees the trails down as a break from the climbing but they can be physical in their own way and when I'm done I'm back to climbing the gravel roads.

It probably also doesn't help there isn't really many places to sit and take a minute, other than just taking a minute before going down trial. I think another issue is my 'lap' is too long to do a second, rather than go back to the bottom and start another lap I should do a red trail and immediately go back up for another, then finish the loop.

Any tips on how to spend a bit more time on the trails? There's times at the 10% climbs that I'm walking the bike and feel like I'm giving 110% just to get back to the hill. On the road bike people would say only increase the distance by 10% when building up but mountain biking is a bit trickier as there's only so many ways to get around between trails, you're inevitably going to be adding a chunk of climbing if you want to get that extra trail in.

Gerry · 29-07-2023 4:43pm

How often are you getting out on trails? I used to get out maybe every 3 weeks or month, with almost no cycling besides that. my fitness was rubbish and went nowhere.

Any other cycling you can do is hugely helpful, and I'd say to see *any* improvement you'd need at least one big spin a week and a few smaler ones.

Gerry · 29-07-2023 4:50pm

Hmm you are already doing 1 or 2 spins a week.

There should be places along the fire road to take a breather, that will probably help. You are probably getting the legs into a bad state before you are 3/4 done.

Would take a few minutes before descents. Going down when you still havent caught your breath is frustrating at best.

DaveyDave · 30-07-2023 8:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120912896#Comment_120912896

Depending on my shift pattern there's weeks where I'm only going once then there's weeks I'm going 3 times. Looking back at the last few months I'm not getting a ton of time in the saddle especially as I'm calling it a day after 10-12km with 250m of climbing. Base miles are almost non existent. I was avoiding weekends due to my low fitness and skill level but trails are basically dead when it's raining which doesn't bother me so I might as well start heading up.

My legs aren't very sore at the end of the day, what I might do is pick a halfway point and just get off the bike and spend a few minutes on my phone or something.

On days I'm not going mountain biking I might do some HIIT on the road bike or even start running again. Both would get the lungs going. Whatever I'm doing now just isn't enough!

Gerry · 30-07-2023 9:48pm

Yeah I'm trying to cast my mind back nearly 20 years to when I started mtb. I was doing practically no other biking, and 2 stone heavier than now.

my legs would feel ok for most of the spin, I had cycled a lot when I was younger, but I had absolutely no cardio fitness. I enjoyed mtb but it was frustrating struggling so much with climbs.

eventually I did a greenway spin with some mates who were fitter than me, I struggled to keep up, but got there and back. it gave me a huge kick to get fitter, and it gave me an appreciation for getting out on the bike in some way shape or form. Haven't looked back since.

10-12k esp if its not at a decent pace probably isnt doing much for your base fitness as you say. Probably you need some longer easier spins, boring as they are, sure, add some HIIT as well. I find mixing it up has worked for me.

You have enough time allocated for biking I think to be making improvements.

I think once you get to a point where you can see a definite improvement it will be hugely motivating and you'll make further gains.

I wouldn't worry about the low skills, stick with trails which you can do and get a longer run down, and get some lessons

Tenzor07 · 31-07-2023 9:31am

You may have identified the main issue there: "having a big gut these days certainly doesn't help"

Obivously the more weight you carry on you the more effort you'll have to put into the pedals to get up the hills.

So your heart rate is going to be quite high for the full 60/70 mins as the downhill sections won't offer any recovery really..

Also nutrition and hydration, are you bringing energy bars or drinks with you? After 1 hour your would need to have a bar after high HR efforts...

Best advice? Cut down the calories, cut out any alcohol if you drink, try get out on the bike 3 times a week and do more steady state cycling, there's more places than Ballinastoe..

prunudo · 31-07-2023 4:29pm

People underestimate it but you get considerable meters climbed in Ballinastoe even just for a basic lap. Are you sticking to the coillte route around the woods or do you know your way around the woods a bit and where each fire road brings you.

Back when I started off I'd often avoid cool runnings as the climb after it can wear you out early on. Also sometimes I would park at car park that overlooks Lough tay. That way I could enter at the top of the woods and get some of the upper trails in without the climb from bottom car park.

Also, say for the likes of Dark Loam, maybe don't contuine onto Holts but go back up to do zipper again. Don't go too low that you dread the climb back up to do another bit.

What I would also say though is, that Ballinastoe is probably tougher now, as its more a top to bottom trail centre where as before it was a big loop broken into 5 or 6 trails.

Tenzor07 · 31-07-2023 6:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922078#Comment_120922078

Place is full of E-MTB's now, no need for fitness! :)

prunudo · 31-07-2023 6:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922453#Comment_120922453

😂 i thought I'd wait to see how the thread progressed before I threw in the 'sure just buy an ebike' bit of advise!

But joking aside, place is made for them now. Think its over 60km and 1600m of climbing to do every trail. And thats before you through in pog and what remains of the natural enduro stages.

lbj666 · 31-07-2023 8:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058306919/struggling-with-fitness

More time on the bike but pace yourself and read up on hr/effort zones if you are not familiar. Mountain biking in any of the trail centres its very easy to "go in the red" ie max effort max hr. especially trying to keep up with people. Max effort you may be up the hill quicker but your are exponentially more tired as a result compared to going less intense for longer time, your day out ends up shorter as a result your recovery after is a lot longer. Dial it back if you can .. tell people to F off and wait.. walk if you need to. Its like running if you cant talk, its too much. Absolutely blasting yourself can be very counterintuitive some times.

You dont sound like you are taking anywhere near long enough breaks... if you are doing 10-15min climb and its high effort you need 4-5 mins to recover.

Going in the red is not avoidable all the time on an MTB due to grade and terrain you should be mindful of it, some time in this zone is good for fitness but 20% of your rides is way too much. Same goes for grinding your legs, stay in the easier gear whenever you can. Its easier said than done especially starting off but focus on volume of riding rather than intensity because the harder intensity stuff comes naturally on the harder bits of climbs.

The funny thing with ebikes is you have been control of these sort of training zones with the press of a button, must most with ebikes have given up on the trying to be fit craic.

As for weight, dont under eat before a spin, you have depleted sugar levels to start which leads to being insatiable after it and eat triple to the amount you burned.

Turbo trainer and something like zwift/trainer road/wahoo system would be great for winter... i am still reaping the benefits of a few 3 x 2-3 month blocks of using it over covid.

DaveyDave · 31-07-2023 10:21pm

In terms of water and energy, I bring 2 bottles of water and 2 gels. It's a bit awkward drinking bottles with a full face so I probably don't drink as much as I should but I stop a lot on the climbs breifly to catch my breath and drink some water. I must buy a new bladder for my hydration pack as I misplaced my old one.

When I'm wrecked on the trails it feels more like I just need a sit down because I've been going and going rather than the faint hitting the wall where I'd use a gel but since I'm planning on taking a proper break somewhere on the trails I'll probably bring a sandwich or something. I usually have a decent sized breakfast so I'm not starving but if I'm trying to spend more time on the trails a bite to eat is probably wise.

I'm definitely not putting in the max effort or anything, due to my weight the lungs and heart rate are at 100% but the legs aren't as bad. I'm putting in enough effort to keep me moving, I usually take a lower gear and spin at a higher cadence as it's easier, definitely not purposely pushing hard. It just happens that my fitness is just too low to comfortably get up a climb. I was walking the bike up that second hairpin climb after Cool Runnings as it hits 12% and two women came cycling up behind me casually having a conversation. I know I'm unfit, but 12% is still 12%!

Tenzor07 · 01-08-2023 9:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922530#Comment_120922530

Yeap you can outsource your legs to Bosch or Yamaha!

E bikes suit the trail centres, especially those without uplifts, having to climb back to the top trails on boring fireroads, although Ballinastoe isn't as boring as Ticknock...

lbj666 · 02-08-2023 12:04am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923593#Comment_120923593

But if your lungs and hr are at 100% that's your max regardless how your legs feel that means you are pushing hard. Yes power is the better metric on a bike but it's clear that the legs can still put the power up to a point it's just the heart/lungs cardio can't keep up from early on.

As tedious as it sounds break up the climbs rest well before you feel your max for a few mins than go again..over time shorten the rest or take less rests (ala couch to 5k plans if you are familiar) You might not be able to control the intensity needed to keep the bike moving but you can control the rests. Don't worry about having to push up bits.

Find somewhere with mellower grades or even on the road or fire road to get the volume in and where you'll have better control of your exertion levels.

As I said you are getting all the high effort stuff you need you'll be surprised if you changed some of that time to low-mid effort and add more low-mid effort riding

I won't get into weight too much, ive never fluctuated more that 5kg over the past 20 year but my fitness has had dramatic fluctuations ...it makes a big difference losing a bit of course but even if it's a constant, time effort taken getting up that hill can still improve.

Tenzor07 · 02-08-2023 8:54am

On the nutrition.. Gels are great for races and situations where you Really need a sugar hit.. but to use them as part of your regular cycling diet probably isn't good for you... Bring a jam/peanut butter sandwich and it will provide more carbs and protein for you...

Alkers · 02-08-2023 9:02am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120923138#Comment_120923138

This is good advice

The official trails now for climbing are pretty handy in terms of technical sections so it's too easy to cycle as fast as you can up them. You need to pace yourself climbing so your not at your max pace, so you have a bit of reserve to get over a rock garden or a particularly steep section. That , and taking a break when you summit, before descending should see you with more energy.

Also rather than doing a big lap then looking for a smaller one, do a small lap first then your normal one

lbj666 · 02-08-2023 10:15am

Aswell No one on an mtb does a warm up, but they have huge benefit and takes some of the edge off the first climb. In 'stoe do a few laps around the cafe/rental or start off really easy...give it 10mins before the suffering really starts.

DaveyDave · 02-08-2023 12:23pm

A lot of useful tips here. Back from a spin now, I tried dialing back a little bit on the climbs. A bit hard for me to do as I naturally have a fast cadence but that bites me in the arse when the fast pedaling ends up being a harder effort. Forcing myself to slow down, a bit more work for the muscles but I wyas able to control my breathing a lot better. Only short of doing a track stand I'm going that slow but better than walking.

Went up to Dark Loam, second climb up to Fancy/Pig Dog felt grand, the climb from the end of Pig Dog felt good too. Finished off with the blue trails and the short climb up to Home Run. A lot less stopping and a better mood too. Thought I'd be gassed on the climb up from the end of Pig Dog but it was fine. The steeper rocky part at the end of that climb kills the momentum and puts me in a bad mood but not today.

Looking at my Garmin I have a lot more jump markers on Pig Dog, now I'm still a beginner so I'm not hauling ass down the trails and a lot of them weren't actually jumps but I have more energy to give the bike a shove off the rocks. Usually I'd be slightly gassed going down the trails but felt good today, got a few PBs on the blue trails back to the car park. Usually I just coast them just to get back to the car, today was probably my first day having the energy to lean into the berms a bit.

It could be a fluke and it was just a good day on the bike, but 14km and 298m climbing is the best I've done in over a month. It will be interesting to see how I feel after tomorrow, I won't skip Zipper this time as today was manageable. I didn't even need my sandwich haha.

lbj666 · 02-08-2023 8:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930006#Comment_120930006

Great to hear...14km is a solid spin keep that in mind... but make sure you don't offset a lower cadence by grinding the legs in a harder gear..that's not what we mean. Same gear ..lower the cadence etc.

General rule of thumb is high cadence works the heart ..low cadence smaller gear works the legs. Generally the low cadence small gear isn't as sustainable.

Everyone has a cadence they find most comfortable work around that..change gears accordingly to cry control the effort... that's off course when there's enough gears left to work with.

Have you a Garmin with a training effort and volume gauge? ...it is a very good aid ...keep you aerobic and anaerrobic training effects in the 2.5-3.5 mark. Keep the volume in the green.

DaveyDave · 03-08-2023 12:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120932413#Comment_120932413

Ah no I'm grinding in a low gear, just slowed the cadence in the same/lowest gear. I'm definitely not going to blow out my knees or anything. Once the climbs level out a bit I can go to my usual higher cadence. It's only the 10-12% sections that I'm doing 60-70rpm so it's not long efforts.

My Garmin has training effect but my older HR monitor doesn't seem to work anymore so I may look into getting a new one.

fatbhoy · 12-08-2023 8:28pm

First, make sure your cassette is like a 50-11 or something like that. I've seen people riding 46 or 42 ones which are hell on climbs.

Next, I find that taking your mind off the climbs when doing them is a great trick, so I slap on a podcast and listen on earbuds. I'm pretty fit, so I only really do it when I'm on my own to stave off boredom. But I reckon it would work nicely psychologically to take your focus off how hard the climbs are on hard climbs, if you know what I mean.

Deffo listen to the lads talking about taking a decent rest when you climb to a trail head. Even take a rest when you finish a trail, before you start a climb. Aim to get to 600m elevation over the next few months, and do that a couple of times a week. That's the true test of fitness: elevation. I reckon 600 - 1000m is really good for a spin, and will fire your fitness off the charts.

prunudo · 12-08-2023 8:43pm

Speaking of psychological, something I find helps is not to look too far ahead on the climb. Don't focus on the brow of the hill in the distance. Look maybe 50 metres ahead or look around. Not quite applicable in the woods but similar idea, on the road, on a steep climb, I'd often focus on getting to the next electricity/telephone pole. Break the climb down into sections.

Plastik · 24-08-2023 1:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120922530#Comment_120922530

I did it at the weekend, 47km/1,650m for every section of open trail centre stuff. I hadn't planned it in advance but looking at the route I did I think you could rationalise it down to 42-44km in total.

Not sure if this link will work ... Check out my activity on Strava: https://strava.app.link/BUukpRkFwCb

I did the old main loop, the two blacks from the top that opened last year, then the 3 new ones that opened this year plus a few awkward ones like Holt's, the link into Expressway, the Suas climbing trail, and the last section down to the rental hut.

You can knock distance/metres off by -

When doing the old main loop pass on the entrance to Expressway and climb back up to do the new link down into it first. When climbing the fire road after Expressway hit the Suas climb and then at the next fire road drop down and do the old blue run home.

I ended up doing Expressway twice because I just rode the old main loop through without thinking first. I had to go back and hit the new link and Suas.

DaveyDave · 24-08-2023 3:20pm

That's some spin, fair play!

I'm definitely starting to feel improvement in the leg muscles since I've slowed down the pedaling. Not having to walk the up the steep bits is a huge morale booster and even when I'm facing a headwind or the sun is absolutely beaming and I'm struggling in the heat I can still get on with it.

Last week I went up Zipper for the first time in just over a month, I managed 4:59 over my previous best of 6:35 on the climb section. Legs felt strong to the point I could actually put a little bit of effort in and I've noticed my general climb speeds have improved. I also hit a new best of 350m elevation.

At the moment I'm doing Pig Dog then back up for Dark Loam into Holts. The next goal would be doing Pig Dog and Expressway then one by one adding Dark Loam, Little One, Pump & Grind etc.

Struggling with fitness...

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