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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    This is a very confused post. Are the greens socialist, or are they simply adding costs to the lowest income households?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Germany never shut down coal for electricity, in 2020 it was still at 24%. It has increased due to the war to 30%. Those numbers are open to discussion as different website seem to have different ranges.

    It was planned to decrease but didn't because of the war, plan is for it to decrease in 2024. Most importantly Germany CO2 reduced even with the increase in burning coal

    https://www.umweltbundesamt.de/en/press/pressinformation/uba-forecast-2022-greenhouse-gas-emissions-down-19#:~:text=Germany's%20greenhouse%20gas%20emissions%20(GHG,million%20tonnes%20less%20than%202021.

    Germany's greenhouse gas emissions (GHG) fell slightly by 1.9% in 2022. GHG emissions were around 746 million tonnes – some 15 million tonnes less than 2021. Overall, emissions in Germany have fallen by 40.4% since 1990. While this means that Germany is generally on track to meet the targets of the Federal Climate Change Act, emissions in the energy sector increased significantly to a level 10.7 million tonnes higher than in 2021 (around 256 million tonnes CO₂ equivalents). This is because, despite savings in natural gas, the increased use of hard coal and lignite for electricity generation caused emissions to rise. Good news: electricity production using renewables was able to curb emissions, up by nine percent over 2021. The energy sector can therefore just about meet its annual emissions target for 2022 of 257 million tonnes. The transport and buildings sectors, on the other hand, once again exceed the annual emission budgets stipulated in the Federal Climate Change Act. These findings are based on new calculations reported by the German Environment Agency (UBA), which were announced today.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    You are probably the number 1 contributor to a thread that is thousands of posts long and attacks every 'green' policy as destroying our country.

    I think it's fair to say you are 'anti environmentalist'

    Carbon taxes are meant to be fully avoidable, you don't pay any carbon taxes if you don't own an ICE car, or if you use electric heating and either generate your own electricity, or use a 100% renewable electricity provider like Airtricity, then you pay zero carbon tax.

    I posted that the current smart meter tariffs are extremely uncompetitive. I never said they are 'a con'. They are an important part of our future energy system but the regulator is doing a **** job and there is zero incentive now for people to use smart meters.

    I didn't say the public fully support the green party. I said they fully support the objectives to "improve public transport, and reduce carbon emissions, and replace our fossil fuel infrastructure with renewables over time". Not Unanimous support. There is never unanimous support for anything in a democracy. But more than enough support that the main political parties are all happy to go with these objectives without fear of losing their seats.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    100% renewable electricity provider like Airtricity

    Dafuq did you just claim there? Aren't they, and other like them told to stop that bullshit claim as it's, well, bullshit.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Climate action clearly means action to prevent the worst impacts of climate change.

    As well as action to mitigate the impacts that we're already unable to avoid.

    The global drive to reduce climate change impacts, is going to require binding commitments for each country to reduce emissions. Ireland can either pretend to go along with these until we get called out, and suddenly are faced with a cliff edge and having to play catch up, or we can plan ahead and reduce emissions now, while building the infrastructure needed to support the new energy systems that will be required in a carbon neutral global energy system.

    Ireland has no oil and gas reserves worth taking about, so we should be at an advantage, no legacy interests dragging us back to try to eek the most profit from the Oil and gas before they become stranded assets. Instead, we have an opportunity to establish ourselves as a global player in wind power and renewable energy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    We should be thinking about it as a way of freeing ourselves from the tyranny of car ownership, instead of fighting for car rights

    I'd love to be able to send my kids to school on a bus, hop on a bus to get into town, meet people, hop on a bus and come home. But my town doesn't have a public transport system. at all. And because everywhere is dominated by roads and cars, the footprint of the towns is much bigger than it needs to be. Everywhere having to have large car parks means the town sprawl makes walking or cycling an ordeal instead of a viable way of getting around.

    People who have always lived with a car cannot imagine not having a car. Many people who have always lived in cities and taken public transport, can not imagine ever wanting to own a car, or where they do own a car, they have them for leisure, trips outside of the city, not for day to day transport.

    We need to make active travel and public transport so good, that it is a pain in the ass to own a car compared to getting on the bus/train/tram/ebike whatever



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Airtricity don't charge carbon taxes on Electricity

    So if you want to avoid carbon taxes, buy your electricity from Airtricity or generate your own. Energia also do 100% renewable energy plans too which don't charge carbon taxes for electricity either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    You may want to read my post again.

    I didn`t say Germany shut down coal for electricity. I said Germany shut down their three remaining nuclear plants which were providing 6% of their electricity and used coal to fill that gap. Even going back to strip mining for coal.

    From your own post it is evident from the same 6% increase of coal from 24% to 30%.

    Unlike here they have no problem nowadays with LNG or going back exploring for gas and I doubt they would disregard any oil deposits should they come upon them. Germany may talk a good game, but when there is any threat to their economy, game plans are not long going out the window.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    There is no ‘carbon tax’ on electricity supply from any supplier and there never will be. The carbon’s impact is paid for through the generator purchasing allowances in the emissions trading system.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    So anybody that questions the green ideology on the basis of economics or expense to households due to uncosted plans are "anti environmentalists"? You really need to cut out the hyperbole and get a bit of sense.

    In other words carbon taxes are avoidable if you can afford to avoid them, and I`m not that sure Airtricity is a 100% renewable electricity provider after we have seen how the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland ruled on the claim by another "100% green energy supplier" where what qualifies for such a claim is legal under the CRU and the E.U. was far removed from the reality by the use of Guarantees of Origin Certificates.

    So you posted that smart meter tariffs are extremely uncompetitive but not that they are a con. There really is a world of difference there all right🙄

    Being apparently one of your "anti environmentalists" whatever that is supposed to mean, other than not cheerleading every proposal the greens come up with, it will surprise you to learn that I have no problem with the objective to "improve public transport, and reduce carbon emissions, and replace our fossil fuel infrastructure with renewables over time" . What I do have a problem with is this this green belief that somehow we should fund every green wet dream that the cannot even give costings for at breakeck speed and be the poster child that the rest of the world will look to and follow when the rest of the world could not give a tinkers damn. Especially where the most recent poster child country, Germany, who banked their transition on Putin`s gas, wasn`t slow in reversing course at the first sign of it threatening their economy.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    You posted they are “back stripping” to me that’s written like they had stopped and returning when they had never stopped. Of course I could be wrong

    As I said the reduced the CO2 in the country during this so not sure why you would be “rolling around the flour in hysterics of laughter on Germany so.”

    Maybe you can explain?



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,787 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    The ASAI is a non-statutory non governmental advisory group like An Taisce or Social Justice Ireland. It doesn’t ‘rule’ on anything.

    Costing a program that is going to take decades is just daft. I notice you still haven’t produced your alternative proposals (other than to wait for the EU to collapse perhaps).

    it seems a lot like you are only in favour of protecting the environment ‘in principle’.



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    No, not anyone that questions 'green ideology'

    Specifically people who spend hundreds of hours voluntarily posting on an online forum attacking any even vaguely pro-environment public policies.



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    I was indeed. And the post was not a criticism of your valid points. I just jumped on yr bandwagon..😊



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    Here is the main problem for Germany ( and the west): in order for companies to invest they need a stable system in which their long term investments pays off. We are talking 20 -30 years. That has been the German economic model.Germany has showed that they cannot and will no longer provide that security. Instead they are determined to keep putting in green policies and unstable and uncertain projections of a great green future that is no base for any company to build on, even wind turbines ir seems). That is why most big German companies ( like Basf) have either left or severely reduced their activity. They stay to suck up the green subsidies. Germany is on the road to industrial destruction. Die Wende has turned into a nightmare.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    What company supplying electricity charge a carbon tax? That's news to me if any do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    How many big companies like Basf are laying off people?

    You sure it's all due to energy prices?

    BASF is the owner of gas producer Wintershall DEA, which incurred heavy losses due to its involvement in the now defunct Nord Stream 2 pipeline that was planned to connect Germany with Russia. The highly controversial project was suspended shortly before its completion due to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine and Wintershall DEA had to write off large parts of its business activities in Russia.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,458 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Did ya figure out what continent you live on yet? 😂



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    That all sounds wonderful. Now, how do we do all that?

    With the limited resources available where should we start? Remember, if we are racing towards a cliff, PV panels on a few roofs isn't the answer.

    Where do we build all these amazing renewable technologies?

    How do we upgrade the grid overnight to use all this power?

    Honestly, thinking Ireland with no manufacturing base or raw materials is going to become a global player in wind or renewables is laughable. Where do we get the resources to start this green revolution here on our shores? Even the 30GW pipedream is but a drop in the ocean compared to Europe's energy needs, nevermind globally.

    Have you ever taken a step back and thought about any of this for more than half a second?

    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,055 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    The confusion is their's alone, dear boy.

    Leaving aside their environmental policy, The Irish Green Party's social and economic policies are slightly left of centre-left.

    But then you factor back in their climate and diversity policy and you find that the bottom line of those, is that it hits the pocket the most, of those least able to bear it.

    So maybe they should clear up for the electorate which it is that they are, before its too late for them.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Not sure why you are dismissing solar panels so quickly. Plus we don't need to upgrade the grid overnight but we certainly need to upgrade it quicker than we are already.

    Why would Ireland want to be a global player? we just need to make sure we can produce enough for Ireland and any excess we can potentially send to UK/France when link is complete.

    We have limited gas, no oil to speak of. So what do you think is going to provide electricity in the future? dig up some more turf?



  • Registered Users Posts: 596 ✭✭✭deholleboom


    Basf is a huge company. Part of the german industrial heartland. I think they have moved 60% of their production outside the EU in the last 10-12 years, but i don't have the data at hand. The trouble is that those green policies simply lead to international operating companies leaving the EU. They might keep their head office in the country of origin if the taxation is favourable (or move to Ireland). Germany lives on exports. Disruption and uncertainty of supply chains are already damping development down. Put green policies on top and its an easy choice. It only works if every country cooperates. Half the world simply says no or does no even if countries signed up to the Paris Climate agreement like India.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    Companies are leaving European countries for years because it is cheaper to manufacture outside of Europe. Just look at the manufacturing boom Ireland seen in the 90's. Especially around computers etc. Dell/IBM/Gateway/HP/etc all had manufacturing in Ireland, not one left now with manufacturing. Why? well we wanted more wages so they moved to countries they could pay less to increase their profits.

    These companies are looking at the bottom line and Basf sales are down, they have a huge bill because of the war with Russia and in the middle of that energy prices are increasing. In Germany they have work councils etc so it's really hard to let people go so this is a nice little window to move manufacturing out and blame the war. They won't get much heat from it and are claiming the people will find jobs in other divisions.

    You can spin everything that happens in the World and blame it on climate change or climate action depending on what side of the wall you are on. That doesn't mean it is true. Germany has no issues with energy supply as seen with them increasing production with coal without any issues.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    So are you saying the ASAI were incorrect in their findings that adverts from Energia, SSE Airtricity and Flogas stating that they provide 100% green energy were misleading.

    If you are, how do you explain that when we were producing 34% of electricity from renewables they were magically supplying 100% to their customers ?

    We already have poor enough form when it comes to pricing state contracts without going down your road of using open cheque books.

    It seems a few like you really do not care what it costs the taxpayer or consumer as long as they get their pet wish.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    More a case of you classifying anyone that even questions anything to do with green ideology as anti-environmentalists actually.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Oi vey, this old chestnut. When all else fails, rely on the blip lol

    I'll just leave this here and remind you that Germany has brought forward the shutdown of coal from 2038 to 2030

    I'm not in the least bit worried about German coal, its very likely to shut down ahead of 2030 as it becomes less and less viable. Coal just can't compete



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We need to make active travel and public transport so good, that it is a pain in the ass to own a car compared to getting on the bus/train/tram/ebike whatever

    100% this!



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    Attempting to explain anything to you is a bit of a fruitless exercise as you just ignore and go off on another tangent, but for what it`s worth.

    On Germany strip mining check out Greta Thunberg detained in Lutzerath January 2023 and that environmentally friendly coal mine in Colombia know by locals as La Cerrejon.

    German consumption of electricity dropped by 4% in 2022 and the last of their nuclear generating plants didn`t shut down until December 2022.

    I`ll leave it to you to join the dots or altrnatively too believe that by increasing their use of coal by 25% they reduced their emissions



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,110 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    So you can bring forward something by going backwards, 🤣

    Don`t kid yourself on Germany that were using Putin`s gas and lambasting everyone else for not doing the same, when it comes to protecting their economy everything else takes second place.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    3.5 Bn what now? 🤭

    Anyway, We had already established German was and still burns coal. Increasing to cover for loss of gas. No idea what Greta has to do with any of this and you accused me of going on tangent

    Again, can you please explain why anyone would be “rolling around the flour in hysterics of laughter on Germany so.”

    Im starting to see a pattern here. Will it continue is the question



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