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Sex for free rent: Why is this so wrong between consenting adults?

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  • 02-08-2023 3:25pm
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    This story - https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2023/08/02/sinn-fein-publishes-bill-to-ban-seeking-sex-in-exchange-for-rent/

    The key point here, as I see it, is that two consenting adults enter into, or do not enter into, an adult relationship where one gives sex in return for the other giving free accommodation. If everything is agreed clearly in advance beforehand and there is no coercion of any sort, what is the problem?

    People make all sorts of "grubby" deals in order to make a living. Sex is just another commodity. Power imbalances exist in all of our relationships, and these frequently determine our rights (for instance, if you do not have the money for a protracted legal case, the person who has the money but a weaker case will usually restrict your exercise of your rights). As with the ban on prostitution, this sort of proposal reflects a certain prudishness about sex, and imposes a certain moral view of it.

    Can anybody justify this proposal?



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Comments

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    #2
    Sugarlumps
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Sugarlumps


    Ever hear of Robert Paul Champagne? He has a cool video - try it out.



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    #3
    Baybay
    Registered Users Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭Baybay


    If accommodation was plentiful or cheap then perhaps arrangements such as you mention might not seem to be potentially coercive towards those who would otherwise choose to avoid such transactions.



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    #4
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Its coercion, exploitation and obtaining sexual favours through a position of dominance over a person in some level of desperation.

    That "grubby' deals are made in life doesn't make it right and the whole point of criminal law is protect the weaker from the stronger with malign intent.

    It should be a specific crime punishable by prison time, with lesser sentences for soliciting the deal. That will kill it instantly, because most of the creatures suggesting it must surely be ugly sweaty incels who couldn't get a woman if they were sold in Dealz.

    And if I heard that any friend of mine was trying that on with property they owned, I'd kick their ****ing ass up and down the street for themselves.



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    #5
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058307704/sex-for-free-rent-why-is-this-so-wrong-between-consenting-adults

    If it's between two consenting adults, the state should have no right to intervene.



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    #6
    Princess Consuela Bananahammock
    Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Ah, but they're NOT consenting.

    Consent under duress is not consent and the landlord can easily make it an "unofficial" condition of accomodation or that he'll rent to someoen else. He could even threaten eviction (not the official reason of eviction though).

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



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    #7
    Wezz
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Wezz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058307704/sex-for-free-rent-why-is-this-so-wrong-between-consenting-adults

    If its a joint decision that both parties are happy with then fine but there is a power imbalance in most of these cases with one party being subject to potential coercion.

    Sexual coercion is not ok and tbh I'm quite surprised you don't seem to see the issue!



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    #8
    circadian
    Registered Users Posts: 6,949 ✭✭✭circadian


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930783#Comment_120930783

    Could say the same about a private entity ending a contract or agreement with a client.



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    #9
    crusd
    Registered Users Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭crusd


    Because the lines between consent and coercion become blurred. If the alternative is to live on the streets, is it really consent?

    Predatory sexual behaviour is as much about power as violence. The predator will find a "power" they can hold over their victim and use it to expliot.

    Is everyone who agrees to such an arrangement a victim? Of course not. But how do you tell?



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    #10
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930783#Comment_120930783

    How can you hope to provide adequate consent under such a skewed power/control dynamic?

    Legalizing sex in lieu of rent just encourages the Jeffrey Epsteins and Harvey Weinsteins and Bill Cosbys of the world to become mass realtors. Chilling.



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    #11
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,229 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Are some people really trying to argue that coercing a tenant into sexual favours is, somehow, ok?

    Fuck

    ing

    hell

    :/



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    #12
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930817#Comment_120930817

    I'm not approving the arrangement; it's not something that I think should be encouraged in society.

    But ultimately we have to ask the question -- would the acceptor of the arrangement want legislation passed to ban the arrangement?

    I suspect not.



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    #13
    Furze99
    Registered Users Posts: 11,099 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930784#Comment_120930784

    I'd be inclined to agree with you if it is the landlord proposing/ demanding such an arrangement from a person desperate for cheap accommodation.

    There are problems though with banning such an arrangement, apart from the difficulty of stopping private arrangements.

    What if it's the tenant who proposes or instigates sex for reduced rent to the landlord? Do you ban that? And what if both parties go along with it and then the tenant tries to blackmail the landlord by threatening to report them?

    Like a lot of things to do with personal relationships, the area is fraught. An O'Broin is just on a bandwagon jumping, attention seeking publicity run.



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    #14
    Pintman Paddy Losty
    Registered Users Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭Pintman Paddy Losty


    I had an arrangement with one of my tenants for a number of years. There was absolutely no coercion or anything like that involved. She had started to rent off me while working and we came to an arrangement (at her suggestion) when she decided to go back to college.

    To be honest it was very mutually beneficial. She didn't want to leave her apartment and end up renting some sh*thole. I didn't need the money. It was a fantastic arrangement to be honest.

    My wife started asking about why the rent was reduced (was only a small amount as I had multiple properties). I fobbed her off telling her it was because of rent pressure zones. Bought her a chanel handbag which ended the nagging.

    Anyway, all worked well. Eventually the girl moved on to move in with her boyfriend but was a very convenient arrangement for us both for the few years.



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    #15
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930821#Comment_120930821

    No, because "coercion" is by definition non-consensual.

    If it's two adults, mutually consenting to the arrangement without the threat of coercion, then nobody - certainly not the state - has the right to intervene in the rights of private-personal arrangements.



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    #16
    Tony EH
    Registered Users Posts: 19,229 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930873#Comment_120930873

    It's absolutely no surprise at all that the likes of you would think sex for rent would be ok.



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    #17
    Allinall
    Registered Users Posts: 6,674 ✭✭✭Allinall


    Why would there be any legal consequences if it's two consenting adults?

    Who would bring the case to court?



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    #18
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,359 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930784#Comment_120930784

    Its not duress though if its a condition set out in advance that both parties have time to consider to be fair.



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    #19
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930821#Comment_120930821

    Some are.

    But they are morons.



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    #20
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Looks like some dude managed to read a chapter of Ayn Rand. Libertarianism is so Internet 2011. Like Richard Dawkins acolytes.



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    #21
    The Continental Op
    Registered Users Posts: 6,670 ✭✭✭The Continental Op


    I wonder how revenue would treat that? Benefit In Kind?

    Wake me up when it's all over.



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    #22
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930883#Comment_120930883

    people are forced to make decisions all the time that they don't think are fair. just because they have been placed in a situation where the only decision left to them is one they'd still prefer not to have to make, and they decide to proceed, does not make it 'fair'.



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    #23
    Larbre34
    Registered Users Posts: 24,026 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930873#Comment_120930873

    "I'll let you have this scarce resource, not for fair market rate, but in exchange for demeaning yourself and allowing an undesired and unwanted violation of your body."

    You really don't have a clue about how common law jurisdictions work, or natural justice, or the protection of rights from manipulation, blackmail and fraud do you??

    If you truly believe all that bullshyt you just said, you belong somewhere where none of these basic protections exist, maybe Myanmar or North Korea.



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    #24
    Wezz
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Wezz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930873#Comment_120930873

    I think its quite clear what the legislation is setting out to do. It's one thing to enter into a casual relationship of a purely physical nature because its desired by both parties, its another for one to use their position to coerce someone into doing something they feel they have no choice but to do in order to avoid being made homeless. Do you really need to have that explained to you?



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    #25
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930892#Comment_120930892

    Would condoms/sex toys etc be tax deducatable?



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    #26
    MrMusician18
    Registered Users Posts: 7,359 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930897#Comment_120930897

    But that isn't the only decision left to them, ant equally the same argument that made against this could be made against high or indeed any level of rent.

    Is it coercion to propose to charge someone €2000 for a room in someones house?



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    #27
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 13,111 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930830#Comment_120930830

    Who is the' acceptor' here?

    What are you on about?

    The person looking for accomodation is being sexually exploited, same as when a boss offers a payrise for sexual favours, a director offers an actor a film part for sex, a drug dealer.. a trafficker...

    There is no difference between this and any other sexual exploitation.

    It is criminal behaviour.



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    #28
    Wezz
    Registered Users Posts: 161 ✭✭Wezz


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120930883#Comment_120930883

    What happens if at some point you no longer want to be part of the arrangement? Do you think your landlord should be able to use the threat of eviction?



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    #29
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,443 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'd be all for this if it was legally required that any landlord who wanted sex in lieu of rent had to publically declare so. in for a penny, in for a pound.



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    #30
    Sleepy
    Registered Users Posts: 24,217 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    It's wrong because the Catholic Church have been left out of their traditional definition of marriage...



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    #31
    Goldengirl
    Registered Users Posts: 13,111 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl


    Why are people assuming that there are two consenting adults?

    Giving consent under duress of any kind is not consent.

    In any of the transactions mentioned above the person being sexually exploited knows that at least they can go to the guards. And the exploiter knows it is illegal.

    Less likely to happen in the first place or to progress.

    Puts a different complexion on it.



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