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You've been looking in the wrong direction, the dangers are coming from the Left - read OP

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's exactly the other way around, and you know it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim



    I really don't get why it's a competition. The right has its antisemites, but it also has probably the largest amount of pro Jewish and pro Israel people of any political wing. Who decides exactly anyway? The Jews? The Israelis? If we left it up to them they'd say that all anti Israel people are antisemites, and in the West at least, they are largely left wing.

    The most antisemitic people by numbers are obviously Muslims, but it's an inconvenient position for many on the left who like to champion Islam, while also holding onto their "anti bigotry" credentials.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    The Jews must be antisemites too according to your warped logic

    It's a fact that Soros uses his vast amount of wealth to influence politics all throughout the world, it's not a conspiracy, it's not antisemitic, it's reality, and reality doesn't change because you want it to.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy



    https://www.axios.com/2023/06/21/israel-minister-not-woke-amichai-chikli

    He was in receipt of a fair bit of criticism over that in Israel, particularly since the minister is in bed with the far right. So no, the Israeli foreign minister aired a view but that in itself doesn't decide whether rhetoric is antisemitic or not. Weird that you didn't mention how much flack he got for the statement with the Jewish community and how he's wildly unpopular at both home and abroad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭TomTomTim


    Netanyahu, the longest serving leader of Israel, shares the exact same views. The point is, that it's not antisemitic when they do it, yet it is when anyone else does it. It's a cheap tactic, used to make people ignore valid criticism of the likes of Soros.

    “The man who lies to himself can be more easily offended than anyone else. You know it is sometimes very pleasant to take offense, isn't it? A man may know that nobody has insulted him, but that he has invented the insult for himself, has lied and exaggerated to make it picturesque, has caught at a word and made a mountain out of a molehill--he knows that himself, yet he will be the first to take offense, and will revel in his resentment till he feels great pleasure in it.”- ― Fyodor Dostoevsky, The Brothers Karamazov




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  • Registered Users Posts: 408 ✭✭Starfire20


    the left doesn't "champion" islam.

    the left is against discrimination on the grounds of someone being muslim.

    theres a difference but then again the right doesn't do nuance.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,230 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Being vocal about the excesses (to put it mildly) of Israel in terms of how they act in the Middle Eastern region isn't "antisemitism", nor will it ever be "antisemitism" no matter how some people, including Israelis, try to frame it. As far as the "left" is concerned, that is where the majority of it's so called, "antisemitism" lies, irrespective of the few genuine cases of real antisemitism that exists on that side of the aisle. And even most of those "genuine" cases have usually been limited to something relatively idiotic like shooting their mouth off in a tweet or, shock horror, liking a tweet.

    But, without a doubt, there has been a concerted effort over the past few years to frame any and all criticism of Israel and/or antizionism as "antisemitism" and to a point, it works. Because all one has to do is shout the slur and people raise their heads. And the most vocal critics of Israeli policy in recent times have been people on the left, and because Israel has taken a lurch to the right and has made some new "friends" there that volume of vocality has become louder amongst certain circles. But there's rarely any actual hard evidence to go along with the slur. It's just, mainly, allegations and he said/she said indistinction. In fact so vague is all of this, that to be labelled an "antisemite" these days all one has to do is speak out out against yet another Israeli incursion into the West Bank or to, merely, be supportive of something like the BDS movement.

    But it wasn't the left wing of politics that were shouting "Jews will not replace us" at Charlottesville a few years ago, a phrase that has its roots in the "great replacement" conspiracy belief so beloved of right wingers and white nationalists in general. And the spectre of holocaust denial is a very firm feature of the right wing as well. It's no surprise at all that a lot of people who express such sentiments eventually end up exposing themselves as real antisemites too.

    And speaking of the holocaust, that's where the antisemitism of the right outstrips anything and everything that may attempted to be levelled at the left in modern times. Because that is the yardstick of judgement in real terms, and those on the right have been very eager to excuse their particular wing of politics from that little venture.

    But in the noise of all of the cheap, politically motivated, yap about the so called "antisemitism" of the Left, it'll never be forgotten that it was the Right wing that did this to the Jews...



    and this...



    and then this...


    Post edited by Tony EH on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    So you're ignoring the various Jewish groups that say it absolutely is anti semitism.... For every form of hate, you'll find people in that grouping that says it isn't hate. In this case you've got far right figures defending other far right figures, that's the reality...



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭growleaves


    A person who donates money to partisan political organisations isn't a philanthropist obviously. They are a political donor.



  • Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    The Christian right support Israel because they believe that its existence will bring forward the end of days, and for no other reason especially when taken in light of their antisemitism especially in relation to US based Jews.

    Even a few posts from like minded people in the Christianity sub forums on here, but they also big contributors to the conspiracy theories sub forums.

    So the support that you see coming from the right for Israel is largely from people who are that fúcked up in the head, how else would you describe people looking forward to the end of all life, that they support Israel as a state but believe that the Jews are out to replace them.

    They also ignore the Jewish people in Israel and elsewhere who regularly protest the actions Israel take in Palestine.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,857 ✭✭✭growleaves


    @I.R.Y.E.D 'Even a few posts from like minded people in the Christianity sub forums on here, but they also big contributors to the conspiracy theories sub forums.'

    I haven't seen that and I read both those forums regularly.

    Only a sub-grouping of American Protestants believe in milliennialist Israel theology.

    Few if any Irish people believe in it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,230 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    The average Christian in Ireland is a very different kettle of fish to the evangelical mess that one can encounter in America. Like all Americana, the "christian" right, so called, is a hotbed of lunacy in which a considerable number believe that Israel is the centre point of Armageddon where one day the battle to end the world will happen and, somehow, they'll be raptured into heaven. That's why there's so much support from "christians" over in the US for Israel in any and all of the things that that nation gets up to, including the slaughter of their fellow man. A lot of those people have never even set foot outside of the States, though, never mind actually going to Israel itself.

    On the other hand, most Israelis that I've met and, indeed, most American Jews, too, have a much more balanced view of things with regards to what happens in the region. None of them live in Israel any more however. Ironically, two of them live in Germany now.

    Catholic Christianity in Ireland, though, was always of an "al la carte" variety and in a number of ways much more healthy, if one can use that word. This was largely because the Ireland of the past was more parochial, in many ways, and very inward looking. But most Catholics here would have generally paid lip service to the church and its teachings while believing in their own version of god and what it stood for, for better or worse. And it took the scandal of systemic child abuse to rock a lot of people into the reality of what the church was up to here. Thankfully the church has a lessened grip on all things in this country these days and that's, mostly, a good thing for the people of this country. Likewise, and equally thankfully, we never went down the road of that weird WASPish extremist evangelicalism that can be found in the US.



  • Registered Users Posts: 868 ✭✭✭I.R.Y.E.D


    @Tony EH

    While you are correct regarding the majority not leaving the states, you can actually find pockets of them here and Irish born believers, as well as groups in the UK.

    I know of two people who left the Baptist church in Phibsborough because of the retroic around those of the Jewish faith from a American pastor in the 90s.

    You have the likes of James McConnell attracting people from both sides of the border, but at least even Evangelical Alliance Ireland had the sense to call on the government to ban Steven Anderson from visiting the county.

    It isn't like Catholic groups here are exempt from ties to groups in the states either. Still laugh at the memory of the stickers all over phone boxes etc in Dublin in the 90s saying condoms didn't protect people from HIV/AIDS which was a theory from a US group and propagated by the Knights of Columbanus here, but do wonder who fell for it apart from a neighbour of my dad who is really down the whole conspiracy theory rabbit hole




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭Sudden Valley


    I believe the Jewish settlements have a large number of believers in the end of times theories. I think it is perhaps unfair to define them as either left or right wing as their beliefs are very specific. Actually at least their beliefs are future looking while traditional Catholicism is all about God's actions from thousands of years ago with a small number of miracles since.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27 Tell it to me arse


    Whatever you want to say about NullZeros assertion not being backed up by evidence the below excerpt from a Michael McDowell Irish Times article six months ago summarises the claim that the left are far more dangerous than the far right in this country.

    Having an elected government with links to this kind of criminality and terror would send our country back to before the stone ages and into strategic alliances the likes of only Russia and it’s allies would consist of.

    Michael McDowell quote:

    Likewise, the Irish and British governments were informed by US representatives at the Weston Park talks in 2001 that the IRA had clandestinely sent teams to Colombia to sell bomb-making technology and know-how to the communist FARC guerrillas in exchange for more than $20 million dollars derived from FARCs control of the narcotics trade.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Having an elected government with links to this kind of criminality and terror would send our country back to before the stone ages and into strategic alliances the likes of only Russia and it’s allies would consist of.

    We had an elected govenrment at the time that was a center-right government at that time - so if the above paragraph is correct, then you posted this in the wrong thread.

    Furthermore, they went on to be responsible for the near bancrupcy of the country. They were led by was a shyster, a liar and a purveyor of right-wing trickle-down economic policies which, to date, has posed the biggest threat to this country since it's inception.

    So I'm not sure who's point you're trying to make here...?

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27 Tell it to me arse


    The government can’t always be responsible for the criminal actions of other political parties in the state at the time. Having said that Sinn Fein are FF’s military wing. They are an offshoot of the IRA which we are told by FF never disbanded across Ireland for the duration of the state until 1998. They took both sides at the time, condemning them as not being the old IRA and also giving them support. In fact, Charlie Haughey tried to get arms imported for them off Colonel Ghadaffi so the depth of corruption in our electorate goes very deep and right into the so called civilised homes of south Dublin who voted for him in their hundreds of thousands in the late eighties. They all have blood on their hands.

    As to your point about right wing policies, yes Charlie Haughey lifted them off FG and opened up our economy. I don’t give him credit for this, it was as much a tactic of straddling both political ideologies that FF have become accustomed for, for the entirety of their existence. But it has become more prevalent in the advent of opening up our economy and our country becoming wealthy. They wanted to appear wealthy and powerful while pandering populist slogans to the poor and thus be socialists at the same time and therefore be the party for all. 

    It’s a hypocritical tactic where they borrow a right wing ideology to gain wealth and then condemn those methods through their underlings. They also have people administering their back channels taking both sides and doing shady deals to take advantage of both sides of the spectrum and hedge their positions. But the problem with a hypocrite is if you tell me a lie now (which hypocrites do by taking both sides) how can I be sure you won’t tell me a lie in the future.

    So tell me are they left or right wing? If we go back to Dev they were definitely left wing closing off the economy and starting an economic war with the Brits. Indeed it was quasi communist save for the protection of private property in the constitution. Hardly open and right wing. They also perpetuated criminal anti internationalist policies via the IRA. They bandy around communist ideologies like the countries resources are owned by the people of the country. This was prevalent in the advent of offshore drilling for oil and more recently the water protests. If we all have public ownership of the resources then the private ownership of land is moot. 

    In another thread here today they were claiming the PD’s were responsible for liberal policies of deregulating property ownership thus causing the crash in 2008 thus straddling that position of anti right ideology whilst simultaneously employing it in government. Also, on rugby threads espousing anti South African coaches and players in this country harking back to anti- William of Orange sentiments. They are backward hypocrites.

    Perpetuating conspiracy theories about colonial intent of the United States by supporting the Nazis (this goes on even to this day via their propoganda channels - Paul Howard’s books making light of it via a priest who sings Deutschland Uber Alles) when the purposes of that international order was to prevent criminality, invasions, human rights abuses, hunger, natural disaster, protect historic sites and open shipping lanes etc. Somehow they twisted it to the narrative that it was colonial when it wasn’t. Supposedly arms for oil. Giving development aid to emerging nations and lending to them isn’t colonial it’s generous. So what if those countries are banana republics and piss it all away. Their entire platform is based off making countries like England seem criminal when in fact they are acting in criminal ways in their own country.

    Are they right wing? Not historically. They are more in step with Russias anti international rules based order. Anti-UN, anti-EU, anti-human rights, anti-development, closed off and protectionist, nae isolationist. Now the advent of right wing approach to their dealings has brought wealth into the country they have marketed themselves as advocating those policies. (They still have their back channels advocating anti-EU sentiments as if they are legitimate intellectual questions to ask.) But not historically. Right wing policies made this country wealthy but FF are and always will be left wing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 19,230 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    What an absolute load of ranting bollocks.

    🤣



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    You said, in your original post "Having an elected government..." did you not? This would imply the parties actually IN govenrment at the time, and not "other" parties.

    Also, I was referring to Bertie Ahearne (who was taoseacht in 2001, not Charlie) who pretented to be left-wing ("I'm a socialist!") but was in reality a right-wing oppertunist.

    All of this is irrelevant because, if you have to go back to the times of Bertie, Charlie and for God's sake Dev (who's before even my time, and that's not easy) then you're looking for age-old threats in order to portray an agenda and not looking at anything relevant to the modern day.

    Post edited by Princess Consuela Bananahammock on

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭charlie_says


    44-110 million other people died, just something that needs to be said from time to time



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,825 ✭✭✭RobbieTheRobber


    Israel is a nation not all Jewish people

    And not all Jewish people are Isreal nationals.

    You seem to be using them interchangeably and that is not correct.

    I don't think that use is accidental.



  • Registered Users Posts: 41,062 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Is this a danger coming from the left? Have I missed something?



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,364 ✭✭✭✭Princess Consuela Bananahammock


    Nope, no danger from the left, you've missed nothing.

    Everything I don't like is either woke or fascist - possibly both - pick one.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Still all clear here. No danger to report sire. 🫡



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No, the threat still exists.

    Several times throughout this thread, I highlighted the threat toward comedy and freedom of speech / expression. That stifling threat still exists, and it manifested this week when Andrew Doyle and Graham Linehan's sold out comedy show was cancelled. Doyle then announced that an alternative venue had been secured, but that was subsequently cancelled too.

    Activists are directly responsible for this retrograde stifling of comedy and free speech. They're destroying artistic expression.




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien


    That’s gas. Almost as if being a hateful, spiteful little bollocks that doxxes and deadnames has repurcussions. 🤷

    He also doesn’t have a leg to stand on if he was to sue the first venue as a lot of their business comes from the LGBT community. They took a commercial decision to not host him as they had representatives of these LGBT companies suggest they wouldn’t be booking again if the venue was to turn their back on the trans community by renting out their venue to someone who has done so much damage to the trans community.

    Tldr/ He f*cked around, he found out.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He also doesn’t have a leg to stand on if he was to sue the first venue as a lot of their business comes from the LGBT community.

    That works both ways.

    Many people will now boycott the event on the basis of how Linehan and others have been treated.

    I certainly would.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,572 ✭✭✭eightieschewbaccy


    A venue isn't required to host him... On top of that, even talktv were laughing at him. Also sounds distinctly like they didn't inform the venue who would be performing... He did do the show outside of the Scottish Parliament and it sounded pretty bad. 😀 So he got his public square so free speech completely intact.

    Why do you think a LGBT friendly venue would be happy hosting a transphobe?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,697 ✭✭✭Flaneur OBrien




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