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What might trigger Ireland`s next recession?

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  • 08-08-2023 10:54am
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭


    I remember watching a George Lee documentary back in early 2007 which speculated on what might cause the next recession. We know now the trigger was the US sub prime defaults but of course if it had not been that, it would have been something else. Ireland`s property market was a gigantic bubble. I am not saying our economy today is the same as it was then. The stresses are different but some of the risks are the same.

    For example, Lee said in 2007 that a weakening US dollar would be bad for Ireland. And, when the US began QE in responce to the sub-prime debacle, the dollar fell and several large US companies laid off thousands of workers here. What offset the weaker dollar eventually was the ECB beginning it`s own QE program and that strengthened the dollar in reletive terms.

    But today things are not quite the same as they were in 2007. If the US FED eases off the rate hike pedal, the US dollar will weaken against the Euro. If they don`t, US businesses, individuals and eventually their banks will begin to default. We have already seen the Fitch ratings agency downgrade the US recently, in other words, they are saying there is a slightly higher risk the US will default on it`s bonds. Still, the ratings agencies cannot be trusted as we learned in 2008. AAA or AA+ may be a symbolic difference but even at AA+ one would assume the US would not default in which case the debt ceiling will continue to rise.

    History tells us that countries always opt for inflation when faced with a debt crisis. So that means the US will eventually give up the fight against inflation, the dollar will weaken and the US multinationals in Ireland will start to lay off workers and maybe pull out altogether. If that happens, our entire economy will be in trouble. The multi-billion euro budget surplusses will become deficits. Unemployment will rise, not only in the multinationals but all of the local suporting businesses. As people lose their jobs, debt defaults will increase and the banks may find themselves in difficulty again.

    But, if these things happen, will the ECB act as it did before? Will it lower interest rates and turn on QE? The Eurozone is not the US. Germany does not want another taste of hyperinflation like it had almost 100 years ago. The Netherlands and Finland would also object. But the PIGS would be crying out for more. Could this be an existential challenge to the EU?

    Or, could Ireland`s next recession be triggered by something else? The housing crisis is more a limiting factor to further growth but to upset the apple tart so to speak, the legs would need to be ripped from under our economy. This is why I think a weakened US dollar and it`s effect on US multinationals here could be the trigger. But maybe things can chug along as they are for a while yet because the US is trying to do a balancing act. Their plans seems to be to keep interest rates where they are, after one more hike and hope it will be enough to keep inflation from rising to quickly. That might be result in not too many defaults on loans. But even if they do that, the US is being squeezed slowly between inflation that is too high and businesses that are slowly going bust. How long that that continue?



Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,500 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt


    There has been talk of a recession for years now, and not a sign of anything serious, at least in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,500 ✭✭✭✭Frank Bullitt




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,948 ✭✭✭893bet


    If Repeated thread on this forum about the next recession could trigger it then we would be gone under at this point.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,791 ✭✭✭Backstreet Moyes


    One of the big reasons multinationals are here is quality of worker.

    As a former boss stated when he overlooked a project he got as many Irish as he could on it.

    Education standards can only fall when the teacher to student ratio gets bigger year on year.

    Skilled workers from abroad will struggle to find accomadation or due to price wouldn't move here.

    A huge amount of college graduates are moving because they can't get anywhere to live.

    We are not going to be able to provide multinationals the quality of worker to keep them here with the way things are going.

    Once that money is gone the country will be destroyed.

    So for me it will most likely be when they leave.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,097 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Soft landings and all that.

    I can only observe that when I look at the graph of my PRSA account, that it has become pretty volatile in the past 18 months. Upwards trajectory for many years before that, now zig zagging wildly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,570 ✭✭✭brickster69


    The knock on effects of other economies going into recession will trigger a recession in Ireland IMO.

    “The earth is littered with the ruins of empires that believed they were eternal.”

    - Camille Paglia



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭Goldengirl




  • Registered Users Posts: 713 ✭✭✭foxsake


    our economy is very open and reliant on other economies bar food we don't have any natural resources to fall back.

    our educated workforce is a good thing but tbh multinationals often don't care and many will farm the gigs to india and others anyway regardless of the unsuitablity of the workforce there.

    my guess is the continuing fall out over the recent "quantitive easing" in the USA and EU (they printed a load of money) will be the cause of the next economic hardship. Pascal said it was fine during covid and the media loves pascal cos he reads fancy books in his spare time but I remain unconvinced that printing money does any good . Salaries arent keeping pace and we are all poorer as a result.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭gameoverdude


    Quater final defeat again.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    The point of QE was to reduce long-term interest rates during an economic weakness.

    No actual cash is printed during QE.

    It is not helpful to call QE "printing money", as no extra currency is actually printed.

    A more accurate description for QE is asset purchases.


    LT interest rates did fall during QE.

    QE has now stopped, and LT interest rates have risen back to more normal levels.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze



    It seems that you are suggesting that QE by the ECB caused the recent inflation in Ireland.

    It is tempting to think that, and I can understand how people think that.

    However, it is not the case.

    It is the case that QE may have contributed to inflation in asset prices.



  • Registered Users Posts: 713 ✭✭✭foxsake



    more money supply means more prices of course other factors too

    for example - we cant deny energy inflation is cos we sided with the gas-less instead of those will oceans of gas in the Ukraine fighting is a big factor too.

    but to denying QE especially to the extent that it is - I gotta go with QE.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,383 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Yes, typically economics suggests that increasing MS leads to higher prices.

    I put that query directly to the head of economics in one of the 7 universities.

    He replied that QE is not a major cause of the inflation during 20221-2023.


    I see his point.

    QE started in 2014, yet this inflation started in 2022.

    Energy/supply-chains/Brexit and expansionary fiscal policy during COVID are all contributors of the recent inflation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    I think we all know that the "money printing" was not the physical printing of money but the CONjuring up new digital currency which just means we won`t need to use wheelborrows for high inflation like they did in Germany of the 1930s, but the flip side, at least they got the heat their homes with the paper when it became worthless. Yes assets were purchased but with what? Newly created digital currency of course. The ECB is raising interest rates for the same reason it stopped QE. Such things cause inflation and they did do a lot of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,994 ✭✭✭c.p.w.g.w


    I work for one such multinational...when I started I barely got in(a few people pulled strings) now they are hiring people who have no experience or quailications... hoping to train them up on the job... because it's so competitive, and they wont raise the starting money



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    I am reticent about mentioning the housing crisis here because that is a separate matter but one thing I will say is that in the lead up to 2008, house prices were inflated due to people borrowing money to buy, thereby pushing prices higher and higher. Well, the reason house prices have recovered is because the government borrowed 200 billion since then and a lot of that money went back into house price inflation.

    So people borrowing like mad pre 2008 plus the government borrowing like mad post 2008, adds up to an awful lot of borrowing. And for what exactly? So every house can have a high price tag? How many metro`s could we have built for that? Twenty one, I think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,138 ✭✭✭realitykeeper


    Yes but inflation moves around. It dies not all settle in one place forever. For example, if the stock market deflates, the inflation goes into other things, but not necessarily other assets. It can go into services and consumable goods.



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