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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    And another interesting one about zinc-bromine hybrid flow batteries:

    I pretty much ignore "battery breakthrough" stories as I've been reading them for decades and they never come up trumps. However, this one is a company that's been going for over a decade and is actually selling their product to utilities. Again, the story in itself is great. However it's also a reminder of how long it takes even successful products to gain traction, and a quick bit of mental arithmetic tells you about the insane level of scale-up that would be required for grid-level storage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,593 ✭✭✭Pa ElGrande



    That may be the exception, most of these projects are being mandated ahead of the development curve, government unrealistic deadlines and subsidising unproven technology. As a consequence the design and manufacturing errors are out in the field in much greater numbers than would have occurred in a normal take up as Siemens have now found out. Expect carbon capture schemes and hydrogen production to have exactly the same outcome.

    Net Zero means we are paying for the destruction of our economy and society in pursuit of an unachievable and pointless policy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    And just to show what a normal summer day would do

    And yesterday wasn't particularly summery. 2%. Great we have loads of turbines, but they aren't worth a shite when it's not a favourable day for them, and we're piling on more and more to the grid (home heating, electric cars, many new homes, etc, etc)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Hence the need for offshore turbines, solar, interconnectors, additional pumped hydro, various long and short term energy storage and so on



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    Ah. Spend more billions. I'd agree with that.

    However, you missed my point. Yesterday you were blowing your hoop about how great wind was in July. I was merely countering how shite it is in summer. In your post you didn't mention the need for more turbines, more solar, more hydro,etc. It was wind is great



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    In other news, and very loosely related to this country and green policies, this is some cool ass research




  • Registered Users Posts: 29,386 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    ...add nuclear to that, and we should be on the pigs back, we may even become a net energy exporter, win win.....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Nuclear will never form part of the energy production here for a multitude of reasons

    There's a whole thread on the topic where its been discussed in detail.

    There's a long list of reasons laid out in that thread as to why it will never happen with the counter argument consisting mostly of "well we just should cos that's the why and yer all stoopid poopyheads for not agreeing"




  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Yep, renewables need more system flexibility and that's where we should focus our efforts. Energy prices will be higher than they need to be due to dispatch down costs if we don't deliver here.

    Nuclear wouldn't actually do anything to help improve flexibility because it runs on a constant basis.



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭ednwireland


    I suppose the only benefit is that when wholesale prices increase the consumer prices increase.

    as they rarely go down even if wholesale prices drop.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We've always spread our generation across multiple sources, previously it was gas/oil/coal/peat/hydro, it will be no different as we transition to a 100% renewable grid



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,386 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    never say never, we have no way of knowing exactly what will or wont be in our future, we simply have no way of knowing this, but if we continue to have growing periods of just meeting our energy needs, you can be damn sure the arguments for nuclear will become more so, as theres sufficient evidence globally of what happens when you start to run out of meeting your power needs, i.e. this generally leads to a breaking down of critical social and economic structures, which in turn leads to other highly complex and in some cases dangerous outcomes, so never say never....

    thankfully pro nuclear voices are now increasing, and from respected domains, engineers ireland, etc, some of us just know its truly the only way to guarantee our energy needs, current and future needs, i do think a lot of this is coming from primarily younger generations, who dont have as many hang-ups on the negatives of nuclear, and we all know they truly are serious negatives, but theres also a lot of evidence globally on the positives of nuclear, many within the confines of europe itself, some of which we already use here in ireland, and with the plans of further interconnects, this is set to increase....

    theres clearly a moral dilemma with this approach, why should we out source the risks involved in nuclear, yet continue to increase our dependency on it, will relationships be maintain with the countries currently happy to supply us with their nuclear power, i.e. by becoming more energy dependent on others, this in turn increases our overall system vulnerabilities, we also become highly vulnerable to geo political instabilities by having these dependencies...

    ...again there is research from respected sources, globally, we simply may not have enough resources on the planet for completely renewable systems, if this is true, which i suspect is the case, nuclear is simply the only option, and i suspect many, in particular younger generations are starting to realise this to.....

    ...this is a major short coming in particular political entities, in particular green based ones, theyre simply ignoring these potential political facts and realties, yes even getting a reactor up and running in todays ireland is currently at a zero chance, but again, if we continue on our current path of growing precariousness of supply, and those arguments will quickly change to a maybe, to a......



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,459 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Yeah but @[Deleted User] keeps talking about how great it is when wholesale prices drop- but it doesn’t matter to the consumer as prices stay high.

    So it’s a red herring of an argument as that poster well knows.



  • Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭bluedex


    Not directly relevant to Ireland but an analysis of why Europe needs nuclear power to ensure energy sufficiency:

    https://brussels.mcc.hu/publication/why-we-need-nuclear-towards-a-future-of-plenty

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yet it will never happen

    1. It's currently banned. Good luck finding anyone to change that

    2. Given the proliferation of one-off housing there isn't a remote enough spot that won't see massive opposition

    3. There isn't a party in Irish politics that would support putting a plant anywhere. Any that did would suffer at the polls

    4. The transportation of both fuel and waste would see massive objections

    5. Long term storage of nuclear waste would be another issue

    6. You can't just build one, you have to build 2 as they are prone to dropping off suddenly

    7. The costs would have to be born by the exchequer

    8. The timelines would render it pointless given our transition schedule

    9. We don't have a nuclear industry to speak of with zero expertise.

    And so on

    That's only off the top of my head. As I said the idea has been shot to bits for many more reasons all covered in that thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 381 ✭✭bluedex


    New Hunga Tonga research study (in peer review). Proposes the need to consider the volcano as an unexpected, decade-long, natural warming spike. The greenhouse warming effect of 40 trillion gallons of water vapor in the stratosphere may have just kicked in recent months and will persist and peak for 3-7 years.

    Large areas of additional 1.5°C regional warming on top of El Niño and whatever else is going on.

    https://essopenarchive.org/users/304243/articles/657090-long-term-surface-impact-of-hunga-tonga-hunga-ha-apai-like-stratospheric-water-vapor-injection

    Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    That's because most Irish customers are on a fixed tariff, ie they've signed a contract to stay at a fixed price for a year. In other countries, there are higher rates of the alternative, which is dynamic price tariffs. They are generally thought to be cheaper although some customers prefer the price certainty - despite it coming at a premium.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    1. Can be overturned. Change in law and boom
    2. Country is huge. Plenty of space for a power station
    3. Yer right there. Though, if there starts to be power outages and the like, where nuclear could fill a gap, then it will start being talked about. I'd say it already has just not with much traction yet
    4. Would be covered in #3
    5. Would be covered in #3
    6. Ya could build one, and with the proposed interconnectors then the other could be somewhere else. We could team up with one on the continent for example
    7. Same as any infrastructure i.e renewables!
    8. It would be a backup to the renewables which don't perform well in summer. Nuclear would replace coal/oil/gas
    9. Neither did anyone when they started out. Being in the EU would be a huge advantage here. We could bring in someone like EDF to do all that, the same as we bring in a Spanish firm to run the NCT, or an English firm to paint road markings

    What I'm saying is, it's currently very unlikely to happen, but may in future.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,386 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    and again, we dont have the ability to know exactly what future generations are going to be dealing with, in many regards, including geo political tensions, if tensions go south, including and particularly with our current energy partners, we ll quickly find ourselves deeply exposed, i.e. if the general consensus is to reduce or potential stop supplying us with energy created by these partners occurs, you may say good bye to the lot, i.e. becoming as energy dependent as possible is critical for these issues alone, but not entirely, i.e. if we became net energy surplus, i.e. creators, it would give us a serious strategic advantage, strengthening our relationships with these partners, it doesnt take much for for these general consensus to change, i.e. for the population to radially change what happens in regards the use of critical infrastructure....i.e. for example if the french said we re done supplying partners with energy that we re basically paying for, in particular in regards the risks involved, i.e. the french are taking on the risks, but others are reaping the rewards, baring in mind, we all know how volatile the french can be!

    ..again, im not alone in this thinking, we now have groups such as engineers ireland and 18 for 0 etc, lobbying for the over throwing of the banning of the consideration of nuclear, i.e. its growing, and they may just be successful one day...

    again, if the current trend of rising energy supply issues continues, you ll find alternatives such as nuclear will be quickly considered, and you ll find those obstacles will be no longer, as we have sufficient evidence globally of what happens when you start to run out of the stuff, i.e. significant rise in social and economic dysfunctions, and nobody wants that!

    and again, nuclear research thankfully has never stopped, we re now at the stage of having much smaller nuclear reactors, much smaller than the traditional larger ones, this potential could help deal with our approach to housing....

    yes, there currently isnt a political party that would touch this with a barge pole, but yet again, if we ever end up in the situation of running out of energy, you can bet your bottom dollar, they d be all over it like a rash, this could very well happen, we simply dont know, but probably not in my life time, but....

    ...dont forget, not too long ago, ireland would never consider 'radical' polices such as gay marriage, divorce etc etc, i.e. things change, and sometimes can change very quickly, particularly when the stakes are extremely high, i.e. running out of energy etc.....

    and again, the whole process would have to deal with serious objections, but if we start to experience significant power issues, people would probably change their tune fairly quickly, particularly when their overall well being and livelihoods are at stake, again, things change!

    dont worry, ive been thinking about this long enough, im somewhat aware of whats required, this would require an astonishing amount of state funds to make happen, and would take years, if not decades to make happen, but as mentioned, im pretty sure if a rapidly growing number of people cannot meet their most critical of daily needs, due to the lack of energy, they d probably change their tune fairly quickly in regards nuclear....

    and again, covid showed us many things, including the methods of which we fund ourselves, some of worlds barriers towards funding, the main one people public funding, i.e. public debt etc, was thrown out the window, and the books opened wide, we just funded ourselves during covid by running deficits, if we truly start running out of energy, particularly on a larger European scale. this known method of funding would more than likely occur again, sadly and not surprisingly, we re now retuning to the deeply flawed approach of primarily credit run economies, this wont work in the long term anyway, but sadly may never truly be accepted...

    timelines, whos timeline! this vision needs to be ultra long-term, way beyond the lives of us current members of boards, i.e. this is ultimately for your kids, grand kids, nieces and nephews etc, and if our political systems dont get on board with this kind of thinking, and fast, well you may forget about it, as they more than likely will be completely fcuked!

    yup, if the research behind the possibility of the world simply not having enough resources to create 100% renewable energy systems, well you can say, those younger generations futures are completely fcuked, since ireland is completely small fry, almost non existent in regards global political clout, they ll simply run out of energy, and....

    and again, the voice of pro nuclear is growing, particularly amongst some younger generations, why, cause they dont want a fcuked up future for themselves, or their kids and grand kids, theyre aware of some of the research ive mentioned, they know, theyre not stupid, and if you think this world is gonna stay the same, stay the way things just are now, you re really living in a fantasy world. again, ireland is now potentially looking at a sf lead government, this has only come to be in the last few years, before this, this could never be envisaged, things really do change, and sometimes very very quickly....



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,459 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    Most are on a fixed tariff for a year?

    Have you data to support that?

    I would’ve thought most would be on a standard rate that fluctuates with the prices charged at a given time.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,419 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    We should proceed in the assumption that none of those Nuclear technologies will be viable. Full steam ahead on renewables and storage and interconnectors to replace as much fossil fuel generation as we can as quickly as we can.

    Then, IF, one of those new nuclear technologies do ever become viable, we can begin planning for that to come on stream in 25+ years when many of the current generation plants will be reaching the end of their life cycle.

    I have no problem with people optimistically supporting new research and developments in Nuclear technology. My problem is when those same people, or others jump in there and say we should not invest in renewables or currently viable technologies Now.

    (I'm sure there are plenty of snake oil salesmen queuing up to sell us the new 'SMR' that has never been deployed anywhere but can definitely be deployed here, for a 10th of the price with a 10th of the construction time with a 10th of the operating costs of all other generators.)

    We need to spend the next decade replacing as much of our fossil fuel technology as we can with renewables interconnectors and storage. If at the end of that decade, there is a proven Nuclear technology that can be deployed cheaper and more reliably with lower ecological footprint, then of course we should look at that, but it's decades away at the very earliest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,386 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    and again, what if the research that actually exists today, right now, and from respected sources, actually comes true, i.e. what if we actually dont have the resources on this planet to create 100% renewable energy systems on a global level, what happens then!

    and again, yes i fully embrace renewables and its tech, but what if......

    ....do you really think the transition to nuclear will go smoothly if this realisation actually comes to be, do you really think far more powerful countries such as the major super powers will simply allow an orderly redistribution of the resources required for more nuclear energy systems, or will they simply just give everyone the big fcuk you, in regards access to these resources!

    ..this is one of the many reasons why entities such as engineers ireland, 18 for zero etc are advocating for a lifting of the prevention of nuclear in ireland, they realise this could be an extremely serious problem for future generations, cause if these issues truly do come to be, ireland would more than likely experience serious problems....

    again, the existence of these preventions is completely understandable, we re all aware of the major failures of nuclear, but again, these are now serious hang ups by mainly older generations, again, all understandable, but we ve moved on, the tech is now far safer, its time for us to be big grown ups, i.e. what if this research actually ends up being our reality, what about your kids and grand kids futures!



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    we re all aware of the major failures of nuclear, but again, these are now serious hang ups by mainly older generations, again, all understandable, but we ve moved on, the tech is now far safer

    If you believe that you must not be aware of how close, and I mean CLOSE, to a major incident at a plant recently.

    You know all the nuke plants that went offline in 2022 in France, a massive program of emergency works as inspections found the same issue at a butt load of their other plants.

    This explains it better than I could, go to 9 mins in if you don't want to watch the whole thing




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71


    But the issue was found, and fixed right? Like people are there inspecting things and fixing things all the time. Saying we came close to a potential problem but was fixed in all instances isn't a solid argument against a technology



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It's literally that blasé attitude to maintenance that led to the issue in the first place



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,551 ✭✭✭roosterman71




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,559 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Energy prices are already higher than they need to be due to dispatch down costs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306


    8. The timelines would render it (nuclear) pointless given our transition schedule

    It's not our schedule that will determine anything but our actual trajectory. And that is going to be nothing like our schedule because the schedule is cockeyed. I'm sure you noticed how our target for 950k EVs by 2030 quietly slipped off the schedule, allegedly in favour of "active travel" (what a euphemism for miserable inconvenience). We've already got electric buses sitting idle without the infrastructure to charge them. Our departmental annual CO2 plans are mostly box-ticking exercises that can be achieved by rustling a few papers around. We have half-baked aspirational plans for massive grid infrastructure enhancement and a hydrogen economy. I firmly believe the people coming up with them have been told about our "transition schedule" and are going through the motions without actually believing they can be achieved. And this is all in a country whose unachievable energy transition would make the square root of diddly squat difference to climate change anyway.

    A genuine global energy energy transition would require two gigawatts of new low carbon power EVERY SINGLE DAY from here to 2050. The EU would need 0.5 GW every day to 2030 to meet targets. Globally it would need $35 trillion by 2030. The IEA reckons it is $0.6 trillion annually just for grid upgrades. The IMF reckons there would be a two thirds shortfall of metals required, with new mines taking decades to come online and existing suppliers concentrated in just a handful of countries.

    Green lobbyists continue to peddle the story of falling renewables prices, ignoring that this has come to a screeching halt. The era of cheap venture vulture money chasing guaranteed public funds is already in the rear view mirror. Last year's much touted offshore wind at UK£37/MWh -- remember "nine times cheaper than gas" -- has already come unstuck. Those projects can now not be delivered. I have no doubt that Ireland's much more expensive projects will also run into trouble.

    Given that the timelines were crazy even without the constraints of both materials and money, it's very puzzling that the greenies are not wholeheartedly cheering nuclear on. Every MW of nuclear power would substitute for wind turbines with fifteen times the metal requirements. The timeline for nuclear is only a problem if you think we're going to arrive at 2050 having not needed it. Given you believe climate is an existential threat, why would you put all your eggs in a renewables basket that major world bodies predict have a good chance of failing? It's not a question of either/or, we need both and more. Right now there are hundreds of disused coal-fired thermal plants around the world with extant grid connections and cooling water supplies. A nuclear plant is just a glorified water boiler that can be hooked up to the same infrastructure.

    Nuclear needs no new innovation (though that should be pursued too). There are proven ready-to-go large modular reactor designs. Yes it's expensive, but there is scope for dramatically reducing the price by not redesigning both the wheel and the associated regulations with every build. Where there is a will there is a way. The problem is there is no will, which is something that the greenies are going to have to answer for because it makes no sense whatsoever in a warming world. Germany is the poster child for this nuttiness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭JRant


    The perceived danger of nuclear is completely overblown. Here's an interesting graph showing just how safe nuclear is, in fact it safer than wind per TWh of production and emissions.


    "Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,607 ✭✭✭ps200306



    We should proceed in the assumption that none of those Nuclear technologies will be viable. Full steam ahead on renewables and storage and interconnectors to replace as much fossil fuel generation as we can as quickly as we can.

    This is completely missing the point. We don't need new nuclear technologies. We have passively safe existing designs ready to go. The Westinghouse AP1000 PWR is it. There are ten of them already online or under construction. It is certified 100 times less likely than any previous plant to have a core accident (with an estimate of one accident per two million years!). It is tried and trusted technology with outstanding new safety additions. And yes, before anyone says it, two of its implementations were project disasters from a cost and timeline point of view. But those were under way during design. That is water under the bridge -- someone else has paid the cost. There are no issues with the design itself, and the latest unit came online literally last week.

    New reactor trechnology would be nice, and we should pursue it because there are even more promising designs. But we do not need them! Safe nuclear is available right now. Renewables at a scale that can achieve an energy transition on their own are not.



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