Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Transgender man wins women's 100 yd and 400 yd freestyle races.

Options
1169170172174175212

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Encouraging female players is sexist now?

    Strange one.

    Call me crazy but I don't see how having their accomplishments valued as 200 points less than a male's encourages female players. Can they just give them a rose gold trophy instead of a gold one? /shrug



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    You're still making the mistake of thinking a WGM is a female Grandmaster. It's not. It's a separate thing entirely. There is nothing stopping a female player being a Grandmaster.

    However, the reality is the top rankings of chess are significantly male-dominated, and so why not have a title which reflects, say, the top 0.1% (or whatever it is) of women players?

    But perhaps you know better than them of course...



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,635 ✭✭✭Enduro


    I think I get now, thanks. The sentance that had initially bothered me was this one:

    The issue is that women’s titles are considered less valuable by the FIDE, so a Woman Grandmaster wouldn’t be tranferred a general Grandmaster.

    So I'm guessing that is a jounralist twisting things a little. Presumably all the titles are conferred on the basis of rankiing points (or competiton results, again beyond my knowledge) and the "value" of the title from a FIDE perpective is essentially the number of points required to be conferred with the title. The higher the points, the more prestigous the title. So the jouno has kind of written it backwards essentially. FIDE has created female only titles that have lower ranking points requriements than their open equivalent. It's not that they "value" the tiles less. It's that they are easier to obtain than their open equivalents.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Yeah, to say "women's titles are considered less valuable" is bad English. In fact, a WGM is considered about as valuable as an FM title by FIDE, hence the 2300 rating threshold and the fact that FIDE are considering allowing you convert one into the other. And a WGM is considered more valuable than a CM, so they wouldn't force you to convert WGM to CM.

    And a woman with a GM title is absolutely on a par with a male with a GM title (allowing that, within the GM titles, there are stronger ones and weaker ones).



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    'about as valuable.'



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I don't claim to know better, I am just expressing my opinion with the disclosed caveat I am not immersed in the culture of chess.

    The dominance of males in the grandmaster level could indicate true differences in the sexes here but I'm unclear what that is.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Yes - what's your point here?

    They have different requirements to gain them, so you can't say they're exactly the same because they're not.

    But they require the same base rating (2300 - with exceptions in certain cases), so you can say they're about as valuable as each other.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Yeah, to say "women's titles are considered less valuable" is bad English.


    It’s not considered bad English at all. It’s a fact that the women’s titles are considered less valuable by FIDE. Bad English might explain how one could give this commentator the benefit of the doubt that English is probably not his first language and something may have been lost in translation:


    Belarusian-born Mr Smirin - who was once ranked one of the world's top 20 players - was making his debut as an English-language commentator in Astana, Kazakhstan.

    He was initially speaking about one of the competitors, Chinese chess player Zhu Jiner. She is a woman grandmaster, which is a separate, lower title to that of grandmaster.

    All chess players - men and women - can become grandmasters, which is the highest title a chess player can attain, if they have a rating of 2,500 and above. The very top female chess players have this title. 

    The woman grandmaster title is only for women and requires a lower rating of 2,300. 

    The commentators were discussing whether Zhu Jiner could become grandmaster, when Mr Smirin said: "She's a woman grandmaster or what?... Why she wants to be like men grandmaster in this case?" 

    Mr Smirin went on to appear to admit that he had privately said "chess is maybe not for women".

    Fellow commentator Fiona Steil-Antoni said to him: "You're saying, you know, 'chess is maybe not for women'," and Mr Smirin replied: "I didn't say it openly... in private, private conversation."

    He was initially speaking about one of the competitors, Chinese chess player Zhu Jiner. She is a woman grandmaster, which is a separate, lower title to that of grandmaster.

    All chess players - men and women - can become grandmasters, which is the highest title a chess player can attain, if they have a rating of 2,500 and above. The very top female chess players have this title. 

    The woman grandmaster title is only for women and requires a lower rating of 2,300. 

    The commentators were discussing whether Zhu Jiner could become grandmaster, when Mr Smirin said: "She's a woman grandmaster or what?... Why she wants to be like men grandmaster in this case?" 

    Mr Smirin went on to appear to admit that he had privately said "chess is maybe not for women".

    Fellow commentator Fiona Steil-Antoni said to him: "You're saying, you know, 'chess is maybe not for women'," and Mr Smirin replied: "I didn't say it openly... in private, private conversation."

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-63062092.amp



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    You do come across as someone who thinks they know more about most things than most people in fairness. Even this discussion started with you saying FIDE's plans "includes stripping former winners of titles if they later transition", and then comparing that to Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner winning titles, which betrays your ignorance by how incredibly wide of the mark it is.

    I think you'd do well to acknowledge what a silly comparison that was. It'd help others take you halfway seriously.

    Now you think you know more than women players on what encourages them to play the game. You say you're "just expressing your opinion" but you're ignoring the input of posters far more knowledge than you.

    I think you just want to fit your pre-conceived view into everything that arises tbh.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Your personal angst against me aside, I expressed my opinion, knowing full well it was open to being contributed upon, which to be fair you have done, informing a number of us what those differences are. Nothing "betrays my ignorance" I never claimed not to be ignorant of the world of chess sporting minutiae, and expressed my confusion at the news. And a number of other posters, whom you don't lambast as ignoramuses, have similarly expressed the sentiment that it doesn't make sense to strip people of titles ex post facto because they later transition. I never once claimed I know more than women players, "Seems strange to be and tinges of sexism, but I'm not a real chess player." I don't know how from this you got that I am passing myself as a know it all who knows more about this subject than the women participating it, perhaps you are just itching for a fight, it's a slow news day.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    The dominance of males in the grandmaster level could indicate true differences in the sexes here but I'm unclear what that is.


    There’s no differences between the sexes in terms of their ability, the dominance of males at Grandmaster level is simply because chess is a more popular game among boys and men than girls and women. The women’s titles were conceived with the intent of encouraging more girls and women to play chess and to compete in competition, but that competition is still regarded at a lower level than the competitions which are not restricted to women only.

    Because I am indeed a cynical sort, this latest move by FIDE appears to be more of a jumping on the bandwagon to promote chess. There’s already considerable disagreement over whether or not it constitutes a sport at all, but when it comes to the sex of the participants, there’s no actual differences apart from the participants perceptions and how that can influence their performance -

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/ejsp.440



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    It is bad English, and it is not a fact that Women's titles are considered less valuable than Open ones.

    If they were, why are there 317 WGMs but only 41 female FMs? 839 WIMs but only 22 female CMs? These are roughly equivalent titles.

    There are people who are derogatory towards these titles, and that's what you've shown. It mayn't help that there's a tendency for top top chess players to be on the autism spectrum and/or socially awkward (and may also help explain why men outnumber women so heavily at the top level), or that chess is more popular in cultures which we'd consider more masculine/macho - Russia yet obvious one.

    And there's an element that FIDE set absurdly low entry requirements for WFM/WCM when they introduced them - that didn't help their standing. But in fairness they've since fixed that issue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,619 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I'm interested in the conclusions from Chess (and hopefully has less built in biases and let's science answer the questions directly), it's one sport where the playing field is about as level as it gets physically and you'd expect the differences to come down to number of players in the sport.

    However, the mention of age is interesting, as it implies that either or both brain deterioration and physical deterioration play a part as people get older which also implies that differences between males and females in those areas could lend one group a built in advantage (on average and accepting there will be outliers).

    It would also disprove the notion of sports themselves adapting to become completely gender neutral (barring team quotas) in the absence of millions of years of evolution that caused those differences to disappear (which is, again, unlikely in evolutionary terms).



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal



    It is bad English, and it is not a fact that Women's titles are considered less valuable than Open ones.

    With a 200 points delta?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    it doesn't make sense to strip people of titles ex post facto because they later transition

    But it's been explained to you why this isn't happening, and why your comparison with taking medals/titles off Jenner doesn't make an ounce of sense. Yet, that having been explained to you (by someone who plays a lot), you ignore it and repeat your ill-conceived view

    Compared that to Enduro, who is genuinely interested in engaging in the topic, finding out more, and acknowledging where their view has been changed or enlightened.



  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Please stop the personal attacks.

    "The issue is that women’s titles are considered less valuable by the FIDE, so a Woman Grandmaster wouldn’t be tranferred [sic] a general Grandmaster."

    “The abolished women title may be transferred into a general title of the same or lower level (e.g., Woman Grand Master may be transferred into FIDE Master, Women’s International Master into Candidate, etc.)”

    The International Chess Federation says it will “abolish” the women’s titles a player has earned should they transition to a man.

    The sport’s international governing body — known commonly by its French acronym FIDE — recently updated its handbook to include a slew of guidelines to account for transgender players. In addition to revoking the titles — such as Woman Grandmaster, Woman International Master, Woman FIDE Master, and Woman Candidate Master — the FIDE bar transgender women from competing women’s events.

    “In the event that the gender was changed from a male to a female,” the handbook says, “the player has no right to participate in official FIDE events for women until further FIDE’s decision is made. Such decision should be based on further analysis and shall be taken by the FIDE Council at the earliest possible time, but not longer than within 2 (two) years period. There are no restrictions to play in the open section for a person who has changed the gender.”

    'it doesn't make sense to strip people of titles ex post facto because they later transition

    But it's been explained to you why this isn't happening'

    As you can see from the report, it is happening. Take your argument up with MediaITE?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    What personal attack?

    And who are MediaITE? I've already shown (a) how the article is badly worded and (b) what it actually means.

    Nobody's being stripped of anything. But if you wake up and decide you're a man, then you can't have a Women's title. It would make no sense. So your title would be converted into the roughly equivalent Open title.

    And you've again ignored that your comparison to Jenner makes no sense and betrays your ignorance here.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb




  • Registered Users Posts: 82,509 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    "Titles. If a player holds any of the women titles, but the gender has been changed to a man, the women titles are to be abolished. Those can be renewed if the person changes the gender back to a woman and can prove the ownership of the respective FIDE ID that holds the title. The abolished women title may be transferred into a general title of the same or lower level (e.g., WGM may be transferred into FM, WIM into CM, etc.)."

    It isn't a matter of the report being 'poorly worded'

    If a player has changed the gender from a man into a woman, all the previous titles remain eligible. 

    Double standards exist in the sport.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    They’re considered less valuable by FIDE. What anyone else thinks of them at an individual level is entirely their own business, which would explain their motivation one way or the other.

    I’ve not shown I’m derogatory towards those titles. I’ve shown that FIDE is the organising body who imagines that one way to encourage more girls and women to play chess is by creating titles which only women can compete for, which FIDE considers of less value than the top titles that anyone can play for.

    I’m not getting into the autism stuff, because that isn’t what limits anyone’s ability to attain the title of Grandmaster, and in any case it would apply similarly to both sexes. Cultural factors certainly would affect participation rates, not helped by the kind of comments made about women’s and girls ability to play chess. For all FIDEs efforts to encourage more girls and women to play chess, it doesn’t help when they’re met with attitudes like that.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    I don't know what you think that link shows.

    If you decide you're a man, you can't have a Women's title. That's what this comes down to. So you'll get the roughly equivalent Open title, if there is one. Which seems entirely fair

    There is no indication that, say, your 2015 Women's U19 European title would be abolished (which is what your daft comparison to Jenner suggested)



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Are Women's titles considered inherently less valuable by FIDE? Even after I've shown that WGM > CM for example?

    I never said anything about your view of the titles, derogatory or otherwise; I was referring to your quote from Smirin, which didn't prove anything about the relative merits of titles except for his own view. (In fact, FIDE fined him for his comments, so they hardly agree with him)

    And I never said autism limits anyone's ability to reach GM - but there absolutely is some correlation there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Yes, yes they are.

    And I know you didn’t say anything about my view of the titles, I was just clarifying that I don’t see the titles as derogatory, I see their existence as derogatory though, because like I said they indicate to women that they are of lesser importance to the game of chess. It’s why I joked that I could already imagine the jokes going around about the queens gambit off the back of these new rules.

    The reason you reminded me of that incident at all was when you first made the point that cop on was generally used as opposed to sex or gender, which is true, and is still true, it’s only the titles that will change. When you said it was bad English though, then I presented it as an example of not just bad English, but a bad attitude towards women’s participation in the game. That he just kept digging a hole for himself when questioned on it only made matters worse! For him it was a throwaway remark, for the other commentator and the audience it was facepalm inducing 😂

    I know you didn’t explicitly say it, again I was just clarifying because there’s little point in even bringing it up, and I made the point that in any case it would apply to both sexes equally - autism isn’t something which would inhibit their ability to attain the title of Grandmaster, regardless of the observer bias that suggests there is a correlation between autism and Grandmasters. That’s all it is - a correlation, not causation.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That Overheal refuses to acknowledge any scientific evidence against their position, instead resorting to obfuscation and deflection.



  • Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 76,141 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    If posters really do not wish to discuss the topic then please do not post they will be getting threadbans for the sort of petty bickering and indeed backseat moderation evident in quite a lot of recent posts



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    So what's your source for your view that FIDE consider Women's titles inherently less valuable then Open ones (even after I've shown two cases where this factually isn't true)? Saying "Yes, yes they are" isn't a point.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    Fair enough; I agree with that. Wasn't clear from your original post is all.

    I should point out, for what it's worth, that I've played chess at an international level; I don't have a title (in part because I'm not eligible for WCM - discrimination!!! and so forth) but I know and have played plenty of players who do. I've a reasonable knowledge of what they involve, so I'd like to think I know what I'm talking about. I won't claim to be a complete expert, but I do find it funny to see Overheal comparing a chess title to an athletics one or One Eyes Jack using one nutter who was fined for his comments to try argue that FIDE think Women's titles are inherently less valuable than Open ones.

    They're the kind of points that immediately undermines everything they say because it's clear how little they know about it, and are just trying to twist their own pre-existing view onto things. Effectively a great example of Dunning-Kruger.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,718 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack



    Chess.com

    FIDE currently awards the title of GM to a player who achieves a 2500 FIDE classical (or 'standard') rating and three GM norms. 

    https://www.chess.com/terms/grandmaster-chess

    As the name implies, the WGM title is attainable by only women players. They can attain it by achieving a FIDE classical rating of at least 2300 with at least 30 rated games as well as three norms. The title was created in 1976, and it is worth noting that woman players may attain any FIDE title—not woman titles solely.

    https://www.chess.com/terms/woman-grandmaster-chess



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 7,211 Mod ✭✭✭✭cdeb


    So what?

    A WGM is a seriously respectable title. It may be a lower level than GM, but that doesn't mean that, as the original (badly-worded) article said, "women’s titles are considered less valuable by the FIDE". Because, again, a WGM (a Women's title) is roughly comparable to an FM title, and better than a CM title (both Open titles).



Advertisement