General Rugby Discussion 3

Sangre · 17-08-2023 3:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991064#Comment_120991064

not going to happen when people’s livelihoods are in the balance. Yes it’s sport but it’s also their career.

Lost Ormond · 17-08-2023 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991174#Comment_120991174

It also happens at every level of game. There is a discipline committee and hearing and player who has got red card/cited is entitled to a rep to give their side on what happened.v

Buer · 17-08-2023 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120988189#Comment_120988189

The full Sexton report forensically went through the incidents in detail.

After establishing their decision on whether guilty of misconduct or not, they then went into significant detail on their punishment. In doing so, they cited multiple cases from across rugby in the last few years.

Dean Richards criticised the referees in a post match interview and accursed them of favouring the opposition. Ryan Lamb approached officials (he was an assistant coach at the time) after a game and told them it was "a f*cking embarrassment" and they were "going to cost people their jobs".

Sean McCarthy abused the assistant referee during a game from the sideline was another one, I recall.

They listed 23 previous disciplinary hearings involving misconduct towards the officials which they used as their baseline precedent for the suspension. Some high profile, some less so. But I think they nearly all fell in the 2-4 week suspension bracket.

Quin_Dub · 17-08-2023 3:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991202#Comment_120991202

But not Lawyers though , lawyers/solicitors are explicitly barred from participating certainly in the Amateur game.

Players are usually accompanied by a member of the team management group.

sydthebeat · 17-08-2023 3:40pm

as an interesting note, the south african centers this weekend are giving up 17kgs and 8cms to their welsh counterparts

warrenball is back baby !!!

Podge_irl · 17-08-2023 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991064#Comment_120991064

Sports cases can and do get appealed up to "real" courts all the time. The sooner you treat them as a legal function the more likely decisions are to hold up under actual legal review.

ionadnapokot · 17-08-2023 4:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991498#Comment_120991498

Not red card decisons!

ionadnapokot · 17-08-2023 4:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991174#Comment_120991174

Livelihoods In the balance... is a bit of a stretch. Player got sent off by 2 people dedicated to review the incident. You get a ban. Simple. Or so you would think!

Podge_irl · 17-08-2023 4:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991511#Comment_120991511

Red cards specifically no, bans yes.

ionadnapokot · 17-08-2023 5:00pm

But not bans that resulted from red cards.

They are the laws of the game. You broke them. The governing body has banned you (or not!). You appeal it to the governing body. Not the courts.

Quin_Dub · 17-08-2023 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991595#Comment_120991595

Once there is a potential impact to a players income then Lawyers and Courts are a possibility.

A ban could lead to a player missing out on win bonuses or at present , making a WC squad and the earnings linked to it.

A Big ban could lead to a player not getting a contract renewed or even cancelled.

So sadly , Lawyers are going to be part of the process but there does need to be greater clarity around when where and how they get to engage.

Podge_irl · 17-08-2023 5:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991595#Comment_120991595

Governing bodies can get brough to actual courts for not implementing their own rules properly. Its not a fiefdom in which they can do as they wish.

I don't think its particularly relevant in this scenario, but I'm pretty sure it is why WR basically adheres to common law in their hearings and sentences (with the 50% mitigation etc etc). The quickest way to get something to to the courts is to appear to be arbitrary or unfairly targeting individuals. It is obviously far more likely for more serious bans, but sports federations following their own rules can and do get brought all the way to CAS.

ionadnapokot · 17-08-2023 5:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991630#Comment_120991630

Yes clarity is badly needed. WR can also limit 'the blood sucking lawyers' involvements. At least from the players side.

The football in England doesn't have their players and lawyers turning up to disciplinary hearing for red cards. Why does rugby need them?

Podge_irl · 17-08-2023 5:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991774#Comment_120991774

They do not, but their system is also far, far simpler.

ionadnapokot · 17-08-2023 5:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991824#Comment_120991824

Exactly.

And why cant rugby make it simpler?

I'll try and sleep on a simpler system tonight! (i dont want to hear rules v laws argument!)

Podge_irl · 17-08-2023 6:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991848#Comment_120991848

I suppose it could, but basically all dangerous foul play gets exactly the same ban in football. We have decided that is not the case in rugby, and I think they have a point given the more violent nature of perfectly legal actions in the sport.

AbusesToilets · 17-08-2023 8:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991246#Comment_120991246

Gatlandball

ersatz · 18-08-2023 1:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991498#Comment_120991498

Lying in court is perjury, these are not courts. It’s insane that unions can bring in legal artillery as the RFU did for Farrell for a hearing that has no legal standing whatsoever. In a real court rugby tackles are assault.

Podge_irl · 18-08-2023 8:09am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993514#Comment_120993514

I'm aware they are not courts. While it is by no means obligatory and it is a choice by WR, ensuring you strictly obey your own guidelines and rules as set out is important to avoid ending up in courts and one way of doing that is by mimicking the legal system.

In a real court rugby tackles are not assault if committed during a consensual game of rugby. This has actually been litigated and the question of when actions on the rugby pitch cross the line into assault as opposed to accepted actions of the game is a live issue for "real courts".

ionadnapokot · 18-08-2023 10:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120991917#Comment_120991917

I'd agree football foul play is more straightforward and my analogy was really to highlight that there is no need for players and their legals to be present when these Independent Discipline Panels meet.

That would be at the very least one measure WR could take in making the panels job more streamlined - "particularly regarding foul play involving head contact".

https://www.world.rugby/news/832976/world-rugby-to-appeal-independent-disciplinary-decision-relating-to-owen-farrells-red-card

Like I hope they don't make Farrell appear at this Independent Appeal Committee.

WR really need to have a more "hands on" involvement in these panels. If they need legals to sign off, so be it: but they cant continue in its current format.

If WR want consistency they need to be involved in the decisions especially if they really are serious about - "Player welfare is the sport’s number one priority, and the Head Contact Process is central to that mission at the elite level of the sport."

Quin_Dub · 18-08-2023 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994246#Comment_120994246

Lawyers should not be involved in deciding whether an offence is a Red Card or not - That is a Rugby decision and should be kept as such.

They can get involved to discuss the severity of the ban given the employment implications or if there was something wrong with the procedure followed in the disciplinary process , but they absolutely should not have any role in debating Rugby decisions.

sydthebeat · 18-08-2023 10:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994381#Comment_120994381

nail ----- head

Podge_irl · 18-08-2023 11:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994381#Comment_120994381

I think that's a fair point.

fitz · 18-08-2023 1:01pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994381#Comment_120994381

Couldn't agree more with this.

ersatz · 18-08-2023 3:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120993738#Comment_120993738

Tongue in cheek on the assault thing, obvs. Unfortunately the more litigious these arbitrations become the more they’ll benefit deep pocketed unions, players and agents. I don’t fully buy the Moala comparison with Farrell but the optics are terrible. Fiji aren’t showing up to these with top barristers from London and if the system can be gamed in this way you can guarantee it becomes a feature and not a bug.

ionadnapokot · 18-08-2023 3:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994381#Comment_120994381

This is a big part of the problem. I think WR should take it a step further. Eliminate the players lawyers from interfering altogether. It clear that they are influencing the severity of the bans been handed out. That is not just. Its not fair and its lead to inconsistency and confusion

WR should be involved in the disciplinary procedure. Players can still appeal. I don't see the problem.

Quin_Dub · 18-08-2023 3:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120996121#Comment_120996121

Lawyers involvement should be limited to arguing Precedent and Procedure only.

For example.

Precedent - Here's analysis that shows that similar offences with players with similar Disciplinary records received X duration ban , so our guy should get the same

Procedure - The rules state that you should have supplied X paperwork by Y date and given the player Z time to respond , you didn't so we appeal.

Lawyers should have absolutely Zero role in discussing the actual offence - They have no input into whether it was deliberate or not , whether it met the Yellow/Red card thresholds or whether there were Rugby mitigations (change of height , other player etc.).

For fairness , the lawyers should be provided by WR similar to the way people are assigned a defence council by the State.

That way it doesn't matter if you are from a Rich Club/Union or not - Everybody gets the same access to supports.

It is absolutely not fair that just because you ,your club or your country can afford to play £500/hr to some Silk that you have a better chance of getting off than another player with less access to such resources.

Podge_irl · 18-08-2023 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120996097#Comment_120996097

Unfortunately the more litigious these arbitrations become the more they’ll benefit deep pocketed unions, players and agents

I partly agree. But I also think you run the risk of the deep pocketed unions just getting actually litigious anyway (not so much for a 3/4 week ban of course but for the longer ones it would be a concern).

ionadnapokot · 18-08-2023 3:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120996209#Comment_120996209

Agree totally regarding the inequality. I was only thinking the Moala 10 wk ban earlier.

But could you see the benefit of removing the lawyers from these 'hearings' altogether?

They dont need to be hearings is what I'm driving at.

Quin_Dub · 18-08-2023 3:42pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120996269#Comment_120996269

As far as I can see it should run like this.

The following get supplied to the Disciplinary committee

Statement from Referee
Statement from TMO/Bunker Official
Statement from Offending Player/Team Manager.
Statement from Other Player/Team Doctor if an Injury was a result of the incident.
Video footage

Then in isolation, the committee make their ruling and hand down their Judgement.

Then and ONLY then would it be possible for the neutral lawyer to get involved on matters of Precedent (only in terms of ban duration) and Procedure.

ionadnapokot · 18-08-2023 4:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120996313#Comment_120996313

We are getting there! I'll throw my tuppence in.

The Bunker system was a very positive step. I think they cold bring that system a step further post match.

The Citing commissioner, The Foul Play Review Officer (FPRO), The TMO sit down with the Ref post game. Together they all input into the referees report.

Report goes to WR (including post match 36 hours citing commissioner window).
WR Disciplinary Committee convenes. Chair (WR), and 2 others Panel members (e.g. Langford & Croft) PLUS a WR legal (e.g. Casselden)
WR Disciplinary Committee will only then have to review two simple things:

a) Ref report and asoc footage and b) Statement from players/teams involved

The Chair and the 2 Panel members decided on the punishment and legal underwrites the decision (based on precedent).

I suspect the main reason its hasn't happened is the WR don't want to leave themselves open to future legal cases on brain injury.

They want to keep it 'Independent'.

First step is to eliminate the player/legal hearing fiasco aspect.

Shehal · 18-08-2023 5:41pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkDjAJbXTmc

Dont think I've heard such an utterly clueless take on the Farrell ban as this from Ferris.

Acting as if this is a one time incident and ignoring all the priors Farrell has. Probably should have seen it coming when he tried to justify seeing Farrell at the RWC because we wanted to see Sexton at the RWC which summed up how utterly brain dead his argument is.

kuang1 · 18-08-2023 11:29pm

Yeah that's drivel from Ferris.

The "poor Owen Farrell being attacked from all angles on the Internet and social media" stuff doesn't hold much water for me at all.

No it's not right to slate the man personally, but his record in the professional game speaks for itself. His bad decisions on the field doesn't by any means make the man a dick.

And far as I can tell, the vast majority of rugby fans and pundits around the world who know even a little about the game aren't slating Farrell himself over this whole debacle. It's the citation process and it's apparent failings that people are irate over, not the actions of Owen Farrell.

I'm speculating 100% now, but I doubt very much if Farrell himself is feeling victimised here. He surely knows he fcuked up... Again! He may even now be at a point where he would welcome the appropriate punishment and be done with it.

Crash · 19-08-2023 1:19pm

I think the thing that all can agree on is that no one deserves the messy, dragged out nature of these. Sexton didn't deserve two months of wait, Farrell doesn't deserve having to go through the wringer on this twice - the process around this needs to tighten up big time, be fast, expedient, and fair.

Pablo Escobar · 19-08-2023 3:02pm

Apparently, the Wales v South Africa is meant to be on Amazon Prime, but I can’t seem to find it. Is there a difference between Ireland and UK Prime or something along those lines?

2smiggy · 19-08-2023 3:06pm

On Amazon UK , ya different to Amazon Ireland

TheRona · 19-08-2023 3:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121000000#Comment_121000000

Premier sports in Ireland

fitz · 19-08-2023 3:23pm

Appalling defense from Wales.

2smiggy · 19-08-2023 3:57pm

Come Joy FFS make up your mind

hold my beer · 19-08-2023 4:00pm

Wales self-imploding. Two minutes of madness

Hurrache · 19-08-2023 4:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121000101#Comment_121000101

Is that a subscription channel? I've been gifted a Sky Sports trial and noticed I have Premier Sports too but thought it was always a separate subscription.

Pretty annoying that they don't have a half time panel on the games though.

hold my beer · 19-08-2023 6:31pm

Think you get it free if you buy the Sky/TNT combined package

19-08-2023 11:33pm

https://twitter.com/paulcullystuff/status/1692983333712789672https%3A//twitter.com/paulcullystuff/status/1692983333712789672

At the best of times, this would be hilarious. But those are three Unions that are in trouble and this could be the seams coming apart. It's quite concerning.

Dave_The_Sheep · 20-08-2023 12:53am

But for the moment, also quite hilarious.

Shehal · 20-08-2023 1:17pm

It's what they all deserve for stabbing their coach in the back the way they did (particularly Australia).

20-08-2023 1:26pm

I can't get over just how poor England were.

PTH2009 · 21-08-2023 11:59pm

Done the Twickenham Stadium & World Rugby musuem tour last week even though i did enjoy the stadium tour part it was a little lacklustre and not much banter (not even a mention of me in Irish gear). Englands dressing room is top notch (the away dressing room is supposedly identical). The lineout statue is a lot bigger than i thought, very impressive stadium as is the players entrance gate and the fancy VIP and VVIP rooms.

Those English love to remind everyone of their achievements, lets hope we'll have our own Mueusm someday with many cups