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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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    #25772
    leakyboots
    Registered Users Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Hmmm, I'm not sure criticism of Coombes' defence stacks up. He's 15th overall in the URC for tackles made (Munster have Kleyn in 6th and Hodnett in 3rd... Conor Oliver leads the way). He's in joint 12th for turnovers won, alongside Beirne.

    He tops the stats for carries (28 ahead of 2nd). Made about as many metres as Jimmy O'Brien with ball in hand (40th). Top 4 for tries scored.

    The coaching staff must have their reasons and I trust them while not agreeing with them, but I think we're missing a trick not having more of a look at him in green, and I don't think it's that outrageous an assertion. I personally prefer him over Conan every day of the week but I suspect many on here don't.



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    #25773
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,481 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995043#Comment_120995043

    He is absolutely part of the wider group and if Doris or Conan were to be injured then Coombes will be right there as a potential replacement.

    Most people have been able to accurately predict 28 or 29 of the 33 Man squad for at least 6 months so there were ~15 players training with the group all summer to get on of the maybe 4 or 5 places that were realistically up for grabs across the squad.

    Those ~15 players are still part of the group and if someone gets injured and you need to call up a replacement you want them already up to speed on calls etc.

    They don't all need to get some of the limited game time to fill that back-up role.



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    #25774
    Wegians89
    Registered Users Posts: 3,450 ✭✭✭Wegians89


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994753#Comment_120994753

    Nailed it here really, Coombes is TOH from 2016



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    #25775
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994753#Comment_120994753

    And Jamie Heaslip had 3 caps when he was left out of the 2007 World Cup squad which was an absurd mistake, and he is no way comparable to Blade. I don't know why you're so focused on cap numbers. As to why I think Coombes is better? Cause he does his core job better and I certainly think had Coombes taken the field at 8 in the last match the drop off would have been a lot less than it was when Blade came on at 9.

    I didn't think Coombes would get into the squad - not sure anyone is particularly surprised though. I am surprised he's getting zero game time. There is talk about it because almost everything else was already guessed.



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    #25776
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995043#Comment_120995043

    That's why he was sent back to Munster who have a number of games lined up. Players get injured so he was called in because someone might pick up an injury.

    If he is going to sit around Ireland camp with no game time why would they keep him if they can send to Munster and he can play some of their warm ups?

    That would be a better move to me than throwing him on for 20 mins in a match while they know he isn't travelling. Gve those 20 mins to a player who will travel.



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    #25777
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994958#Comment_120994958

    Im just making the relevant point the guy hasn't been playing for Ireland so I don't see why anyone thinks its a surprise he is been dropped.

    You’re painting all comments as being surprised he’s been dropped from the squad.

    But I don’t think too many are surprised to see him not make the 33.

    Posters are saying they’re surprised he’s been dropped without any gametime.

    That’s a different point to the one you’re claiming they’re making.



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    #25778
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995198#Comment_120995198

    Munster don’t have a warm-up game til Sept 8th.

    He won’t see any more gametime with them in the meantime than he would have staying with Ireland.



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    #25779
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995175#Comment_120995175

    Jesus are we bringing up 2007 now. EOS had a plan in 2007 and that was about having 23 players and that was it. Nobody else. he had done ok with that plan till 2007 when it fell apart in the World Cup. Even if Heaslip travelled in 2007 he would never have played.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995219#Comment_120995219

    Im having a discussion with others. You keep trying to drag this into me making personal comments about the player or other posters. Not sure why. It's just an opinion

    Again why play him if you are not bringing him? you are just wasting valuable minutes when you could try other combinations. They have only 3 games after all. Farrelll never seemed to be a man to throw out caps/minutes just for the sake of it which it seems to be the request now.



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    #25780
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995251#Comment_120995251

    You keep trying to drag this into me making personal comments about the player or other posters. Not sure why.

    Because you're misrepresenting what posters are saying. Case in point:

    Farrelll never seemed to be a man to throw out caps/minutes just for the sake of it which it seems to be the request now.

    Nobody is saying Farrell should throw out caps just for the sake of it.

    Personally, I'm disappointed Coombes didn't get a start vs England, as I was hopeful a good performance could force him in ahead of Prendergast. But I'm also not surprised he's not made the 33, as Prendergast is a better cover option for 7 and can also play elsewhere.

    Both those things can be true.



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    #25781
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995251#Comment_120995251

    I'm aware of the background for 07. But comparing Coombes and Blade because they both missed out on the RWC squad and have similar caps is about as relevant as comparing them to Heaslip who was in the exact same situation. Its a terrible metric.

    Also people talk about it because its the only remotely borderline questionable thing to talk about. 95% of the squad picks itself.



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    #25782
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 6,004 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994037#Comment_120994037

    Just on Coombes' height, he seems to stand and walk in a slouch. Shoulders hunched head forward. Maybe he stands up straight when he gets measured. That could explain why theres a couple of inches between his listed height and how tall he appears in pictures.

    I'm a fan of Coombes and disappointed that he's not getting a run this weekend. But clearly theres something he's not showing in the training camps that the coaches want to see. I've said it before 100 times, club form gets a player into camp but then they have to impress the coaches. Some fans can't understand that.



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    #25783
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,631 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994496#Comment_120994496

    We had about 50 pages worth of posts about Kleyn and Healy, Coombes seems far more worthy of a discussion! That he's never been given a proper go by Ireland is pretty odd to me, a bit like McCloskey under Joe Schmidt.



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    #25784
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995321#Comment_120995321

    I think coaches make far more of their decisions on the training field than on the playing field.



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    #25785
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995321#Comment_120995321

    "a proper go"?

    coombes has been in 2021 6 nations camp, 2021 summer series squad, 2021 autumn nations squad, 2022 6 nations squad, 2022 autumn nations camp, 2023 6 nations camp, 2023 summer nations squad and 2023 RWC camp.


    hes clearly been given the opportunity to impress the coaches, but for whatever reason in their eyes, hes not doing it.

    i don't agree at all at this stage that he hasnt been given a proper go. If hes a player who can only turn it on in competitive games, then thats a lesson he will have to learn quite quickly.



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    #25786
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,631 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995458#Comment_120995458

    Yeah I'd consider actual test matches to be 'a proper go', not training camps. We can agree or disagree on that. I'm not overly bothered on Coombes but I do think its a bit unusual



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    #25787
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    I'd say the coaches learn more from playing Prendergast at 8 this weekend than they do by playing Coombes. They know what they get with Coombes. If Conan or Doris get injured, then I'd expect Coombes called up ahead of Prendergast.

    I also don't think that Coombes just isn't showing up in training and that's why he doesn't get games. If he wasn't showing up in training, then there is no way he'd have been in so many squads. The simple fact is he has better players ahead of him. Doris is challenging for world player of the year this year. Conan is a test lion. There really is no shame in being behind these guys.



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    #25788
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995491#Comment_120995491

    and like i said, if hes a player who can only do it in test games and not in training camps he will have a very short international career.

    we only think test minutes are the 'be all and end all' because that is all we have to go on to critique our players. Its essentially confirmation bias due to a lack of data.



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    #25789
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995321#Comment_120995321

    McCloskey was up against superior centres in Henshaw/Aki(Both Lions starters). Ringrose plays 13 and he doesn't play in that position.

    He has upped his game this year and has been rewarded, now he is a player who should be going based on his impact in the last 12 months

    The "proper go" I don't believe. He has been around and looked at enough for the management to know what he can do. Especially when you consider Paulie has a big role in calling those positions



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    #25790
    Foxtrol
    Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995491#Comment_120995491

    If he so far hasnt showed what is needed during all those training camps and his other chances then what difference should a warm up game do in the coaches minds?

    There is no point in throwing minutes out there just to make a few supporters feel better (or likely more angry if he performed well) when the minutes could be used in a more beneficial manner on another player who is more clearly in the picture.



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    #25791
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995563#Comment_120995563

    Yes, coaches obviously see substantially more of the players.

    But it doesn’t follow that we’ve seen so little that we can’t form an opinion of our own.

    It’s not just Test games, Coombes has a quality body of work for Munster too.

    It’s not an especially small sample size.



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    #25792
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995297#Comment_120995297

    So how would you describe these posts:

    I expected him to get a game to at least maintain his match sharpness in case he is required to go to France.

    No one really expected him to make the final squad but to be dropped before getting a game is unexpected.

    Im not misrepresenting anything. I am discussing the situation in regards to what I think is best for Ireland and I don't agree with throwing a player on for a few mins if the management have no intention of bringing him on the plane

    You are asking for Coombes to play v England but not go to the World Cup? that's just throwing out caps in my opinion and wasting valuable minutes for players who will travel and they can test combinations.



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    #25793
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995661#Comment_120995661

    You are asking for Coombes to play v England but not go to the World Cup?

    Nope. You’re conflating things here.

    If I was picking the squad, I would have selected Coombes. And I’d have given him more opportunities up to now.

    But I’m not surprised Farrell hasn’t picked him, due to his previous lack of involvement.



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    #25794
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995735#Comment_120995735

    But he has been involved as pointed out above in multiple squads and has got games. More chances than other players in Ireland.

    Anyway its been done to death.



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    #25795
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995755#Comment_120995755

    Very few games, tho. A large part of that is the injury profile of the players ahead of him.

    But even so, when Conan’s form dropped, I’d liked to have seen him being given an opportunity as I think he has a lot to offer.

    Touch wood, but if injury did strike and he had to be called up, I think he could seize that opportunity. Sometimes you need a bit of luck in that regard.



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    #25796
    irelandrover
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995661#Comment_120995661

    That's not giving caps for the sake of it. That's giving someone caps to maintain match sharpness as they are the backup to the squad for the world cup.

    It's even in the post why I would have given him minutes. Giving people minutes to gain match sharpness before a world cup is the entire point of these games.

    I think the difference is you see Coombes as no where near the squad and hence any minutes given to him are just a waste of warm up games. I see Coombes as probably third choice 8th, and the second choice 8 left the last game injured so giving him minutes to maintain match sharpness would be a good use of these games.



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    #25797
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 13,105 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995044#Comment_120995044

    His numbers are very impressive tbh. I think the coaches have more than the benefit of the doubt but would be interested to know their reasoning for not picking him. Prendergast has been ahead of him in the pecking order all season but starting him at 8 in what is basically a full strength team seems unusual to me.



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    #25798
    ionadnapokot
    Registered Users Posts: 4,840 ✭✭✭ionadnapokot


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995491#Comment_120995491

    There is no doubt in my mind his performance for Ireland A v AB XV set him back in the eyes of Irish coaches. That was Nov '22

    It wasn't just him that day. Lowry and Hume also have been cast aside. In fact the only players with a positive performance that day was young Osborne and Prendergast.

    I'd agree though about Coombes not been given a proper go in the test match arena. The main reason is that Ireland just haven't needed him.


    His time will come. I've no doubt about his ability to become a 'test match animal'. If there was an injury at the RWC to either Conan or Doris I'd be calling up Coombes.



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    #25799
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995885#Comment_120995885

    I don't see why its unusual. He might be called upon to cover the position in the World Cup. It doesn't mean he is ranked ahead of Coombes at the position.



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    #25800
    ZookeeperDub
    Registered Users Posts: 1,280 ✭✭✭ZookeeperDub


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120995868#Comment_120995868

    Why would you give games to the backup and leave the player travelling undercooked? that doesn't make sense. The Irish Management have to go into the competition with the view they will use the players in the squad. Not worry about players at home.

    Yes players get minutes for the World Cup. The priority is to give minutes to the players in the World Cup, not to someone who the team have already decided he is not going and might not be called in unless of injury.

    You see him in roles but do the management? based on tomorrow Coombes looks to be 4th choice 8



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    #25801
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]



    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120994997#Comment_120994997

    But how many Munster players should be going? This is a genuine question. Considering the relative strength of Leinster and Munster over the last decare or more, which means that Leinster players have dominated a very successful national team - who are you dropping and how many Munster players are in the squad in the end?

    I assume Kleyn and Coombes make the Munster fan's squad. Maybe Nash too? So that's circa 9 - what number do you think is "fair" and how do you get there? I assume no one is dropping VDF for Hodnett or Lowe for Conway but maybe I'm completely wrong.



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