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Russia - threadbanned users in OP

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,163 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    They would need the support of China or some other country with masses of equipment (Soviet type)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    These are all A's though block 1,5,10 and possibly 15. They are old (1980's). The platform is excellent but the onboard equipment is old. Not sure how much of a difference it will make. (Its certainly better than the mig-29's they are using though) but whether they'll be able to stand up to a modern(ish) Su-37 is an unknown

    I don't know if A/B F-16's can be upgraded.

    Can they carry the most modern weapons?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 51,285 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Netherlands aren't playing any games with Russia since MH17.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    Not being a military expert in any way, what is the primary combat purpose of F-16s in the hands of Ukrainian air forces?

    i.e. can they be used to destroy Russian ground targets in an offensive capability, or would they mainly be used for defensive operations



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    China, especially with a domestic property crash ongoing (sounds familiar eh), knows which side their bread is buttered on. They wouldn't be so stupid as to end up in a sanctions war with the collective West.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭Nate--IRL--


    I saw it reported elsewhere as Block 20's with MLU applied. I'd be surprised if anything under that spec was still active in NATO.

    Nate



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Essentially the platform was designed for multi role use. This means the plane can carry air to air and air to ground munitions in the same sortie and switch easily between ground attack and air to air mode mid flight. Russian planes up until very recently cannot do this. They are kitted out for a mission, bombing or air to air while on the ground and cannot "really" change mid flight.

    In an ideal scenario these planes would be used as part of a combined arms type set up. Ground forces mark a target, planes blow it up (happens quickly) but in order to do that you need to take control of the sky, and given Russian SAM systems and the presence of Su-35/37's on the battle field it's unlikely they'll be able to fulfil this role. I would imagine American AWACs flying in Poland and Black Sea will however have a direct link to these planes which may make it possible to target things like the KA-52's which have been hampering the offensive significantly.

    That's all just speculation though. Time will tell.

    I would also be surprised, I'm sure they have had upgrades over the years, but with fighter planes, it's all about the most modern tech. They're the planes that win the battles.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,358 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    Read could take 4-5 years to get them properly operational in Ukraine.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭thomil


    The Dutch & Danish F-16s are Block 20s that have received significant upgrades as part of their mid-life update and are functionally more akin to F-16 C/Ds. They may not have the latest and greatest radar systems, but they can carry pretty much every modern western weapons system, both in the air-to-air and air-to-ground role.

    Personally speaking, I think the biggest difference is going to be the massively increased situational awareness that the F-16 provides, both as a result of its design and as a result of the different operational philosophy. I've written about this before, but pretty much all soviet-era aircraft are designed around a strict command & control process where the pilots are effectively told to do one thing and one thing only, often under strict control from the ground. Things did change a little with the MiG-29, but even there, the pilot was still expected to generally follow the orders from ground control, and was given the sensors and systems to do one job, that is be vectored in to a target by ground control until the fighter would get weapons lock.

    Compare that to the western approach, which gives pilots much more leeway. Granted, pilots will still be expected to do their job and follow their mission plan, but nowadays, there is an expectation that a pilot in a fighter will be aware of the greater situation around them and thus be able to deal with emergent threats on their own, if able to do so. Granted, the F-16A Block 20 MLU's radar isn't on par with the type of hyper-advanced system that you find on the F-15s or F-35s of this world, but it will still allow the aircraft to engage in BVR engagements far beyond the capabilities of everything that the UkrAF has at the moment. Between that, and the data link capabilities of even early model F-16s, Ukrainian pilots flying these aircraft will have a much better understanding of the battlefield than ever before.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭Virgil°



    Interesting if shes telling the truth. I wonder if they're just learning english/flight sim for the things or are they actually getting in the cockpit already?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,805 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    There was many reports that training had started months ago from multiple sources. It could have been as you say, learning English and flight & fighter basics in a classroom.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭thomil


    Well, from my understanding, Ukraine already has a small cadre of pilots who've flown alongside USAF F-16s and F-15,s with some apparently even having had backseat experience in western fighters. Plus, Ukrainian fighter pilots already have flight and combat experience, so it's likely going to be more of a systems & tactics training course, rather than having to start from the basics. If pilot training really did start 70-90 days ago, that could mean that they've gone through ground school, possibly even some simulator time and might be ready to hit the real thing in a couple of weeks.

    Of course, courses will have to become longer as less experienced pilots are cycled through the program, but hopefully by that time, the first few sets of pilots will already have "graduated" and returned to squadron service, and will be able to provide informal or local training as well.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



  • Registered Users Posts: 600 ✭✭✭mike_cork


    Yeah saw the same reports.

    I'd be amazed if behind the scenes training hasn't been going for months,supply chains being readied, ground crews receiving training, ammunition/missiles being made ready.

    Even by their very presence on the battlefield these planes will act as a deterrent to russian attack helicopters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,805 ✭✭✭Wolf359f


    AWAC's radar wouldn't be long enough to cover the Frontline from Poland or the Black Sea. However the datalink will be invaluable during mass cruise missile attacks. Most of Ukraine's western air defence is short or medium range, their radars detect the missiles long before they would be within range of their AA missiles. So in theory they could pass on the location to the F16's to intercept them further away from cities etc..



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,412 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    It's all gradual escalation lads so not to cause Russia to do something incredibly stupid (again)

    Slowly drip freed you may give Ukraine something, then might give Ukraine something, then you will give Ukraine something, you are giving something, Ukraine has something.

    But all the while, you're training the lads up to use that particular something. Whether it's rockets, HIMARS, tanks, etc.

    All Eyes On Rafah



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,751 ✭✭✭zv2


    I've been speculating about this for months now. Anything less would be utter incompetence for the west.

    “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.” — Voltaire



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭pcardin


    does anyone knows what happened with them decommissioned F18 that AU wanted to donate to UA but were awaiting for an approval from US?



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,455 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Yes, and bearing in mind that despite all 80% + are fully supportive of Putin, (according to state propaganda), the general population are suffering, and not only the families of the est. 250'000 dead, but the multiples of that injured, and their families too. Add these to the sizeable nr who don't and have never supported him, but were then and are now being brutally suppressed. But the icing on that particular cake will be the Silovicki and Oligarchs who are hemorrhaging cash. For sure Putin is taking a massive gamble. But I guess desperate people will take desperate measure's.

    Post edited by jmreire on


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭pcardin


    people still think the ruSSia we know today is Soviet Union like. It is not. There is no ideology behind. ruSSia today is a basket full of rats, each each rat trying to kill the next rat in order to survive.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭pcardin




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  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭IdHidden


    Sick people.




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,631 ✭✭✭Beta Ray Bill


    Don't the newer ones with I beam on the top have a range of around 600km for airborne targets in the L-band? Not sure if that's looking up or down though

    Might need look down for helicopters flying low



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,102 ✭✭✭pcardin


    can't de-humanise something that never was a human in the first place.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    F-16s of any operational variant will be destroyed handily by Russian SAMs and MiG-31s. They're not the wonder-weapon that many are hoping. I think there's going to be a lot of grim faces when people see how quickly they get shot down. The Americans know this, it's why they are/were dragging their heels so much on the topic.

    A handful of stealth aircraft - manned or unmanned - would win the conflict in a few weeks. But the danger of technology capture by Russia (and transfer to China) is too high.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,455 ✭✭✭jmreire


    Yes, but nothing about the 250'000 (est) Russians who will never need or wear shoes again, or the amputees who will live the rest of their lives in wheelchairs.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,634 ✭✭✭RoyalCelt


    If they do that while under such sanctions from the west in an already crippled economy I can only imagine what that would do economically to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭Raoul Duke III


    I don't (look at the electoral choices facing the US). But I think China chooses prosperity over ideology.



  • Registered Users Posts: 983 ✭✭✭Mike3549




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,885 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I don't think they are "wonder weapons" but why do you claim that they will be "quickly be shot down" by the Russians?

    The Soviet aircraft they have now are not superior are they (?), and Russia still has not managed to shoot all these (or the supplements from supporters) down after over 1 year of war.

    I would have expected Western aircraft they get will do a similar job, probably just better and of course they can be supported/supplied long term. Maybe some more risks can be taken going after the Russian air defence or Russian aircraft (but I doubt will be too much of that, because the pilot(s) are by far the most valuable element).



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,278 ✭✭✭thomil


    Your argument would make sense if Russia were aggressive in their air operations, akin to the way the US conducted their air ops over Iraq. However, I've seen very little offensive air operations from the Russian side beyond close air support and lobbing cruise missiles at Ukraine from somewhere over the Caspian Sea. They don't really seem to be putting much effort into SEAD or trying to obtain aerial superiority even over the front, much less over the rest of Ukraine.

    If Russia keeps up this defensive/apathetic approach to air operations, the F-16s can make a considerable difference, even if they stay on their side of the front. They are an order of magnitude more advanced than any other air-to-ground assets currently in the Ukrainian arsenal, and can, if need be, strike multiple ground targets while still being able to not only fend off any Flanker that decides to get frisky, but also to see them coming. It's not a no-risk environment, far from it, but it won't be a free-for-all for the Russians either. Plus, the lookdown/shootdown capabilities of the F-16s radar is going to make life hell for Russian helicopter pilots.

    Good luck trying to figure me out. I haven't managed that myself yet!



This discussion has been closed.
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