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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It's a fair point, but our back-row at least have shown themselves to be incredibly robust over the last while.

    Of our 4 first choice back-row players in the 23, they missed a total of 1 game vs Tier 1 opposition in the last 2 seasons thru injury. (1 out of 76 samples)

    JGP alone missed 4. (4 out of 19 samples)

    So maybe they will lean on analytics. And go with Casey.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    EDIT: The above was prior to the warm-up games, so including the England game, with Conan injured, that changes to 2 out of 80 samples for the back-row, and 4 out of 20 samples for JGP.

    Which, very neatly, means JGP has been 8 times more likely to miss a game thru injury in the last 2 seasons than the 4 back-row players.

    Post edited by aloooof on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭typhoony


    For me there should be no question about not bringing Sheehan, if Kellegher is not fit to play against Samoa then you give Tom Stewart a solid 60 minutes and if he does well then Farrell is left with the difficult but necessary decision of not bringing Kellegher.

    Also I have bad feeling Farrell is not going to bring Baird. There definitely is a case for thinking outside the Box like SA and Wales have done, this idea of players on standby is a new one to me



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    i wonder was crowley at fault for the pass that was going to him in the 22, it looked like a perfect pass for him to run onto. obviously its usually the 10 making the calls but it could have happened

    as stated already by myself and others, it makes very little sense to leave someone out who is one injury from the squad for someone who is 2/3 injuries away from being involved - neither are likely to play in an important game anyway but a 9 is more likely to find themselves involved at short notice



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭typhoony


    Also if I remember Farrell was praising highly Tom Stewart a few weeks ago. Kellegher won't have played a game and is highly likely to break down again and if we have serious intentions of getting to a semi-final we need our best hooker(Sheehan) who hopefully has a straight forward recovery time mapped out



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭mr_edge_to_you


    I don't think you can afford to bring a player to the world cup who isn't 100% fit. If he's not going to be fit for 6-8 weeks you bring someone else in and get them up to speed. If one of the guys in the squad then gets injured, the player left behind gets his call up.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,316 ✭✭✭✭phog


    An injured player is never your best player.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol



    If your idea of 'analytics' is selecting 5 players and their availability during a small subset of two seasons you might need to revisit your understanding.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    It's an awkward time-frame for Sheehan; shorter and it's much easier bring him, longer and he obviously doesn't travel.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Ha. What else do you suggest we base a players injury prone-ness on, other than their actual injury history?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    What doesn't make sense?

    The 3rd SH adds zero value unless a very unlikely event happens during the first half of the pool (after that you can bring in the SH to provide all the comfort for something weird happening before the big games).

    In contrast, bringing an alternative will definitely provide significant value for those first two games. The only way it doesn't is if you plan to expose an additional starter for each of the first two matches - which to me is dumb due to the huge potential downside.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 876 ✭✭✭mun1


    Six weeks is week before Scotland match,m eight weeks is week of QF.

    There is no scenario that you gamble on taking Sheehan to the WC.

    Now if kelleher is also carrying an injury, whic one of Sheehan/kelleher would you risk bringing . Id say the one who has the best chance of being able to play the South Africa match, which should be kelleher.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You keep saying "very unlikely event". When the reality is, JGP was 8 times more likely to miss a game thru injury in the last 2 seasons than the 4 back-row players you're seemingly looking to protect.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That's a bit reductive to be honest. Players that have been plagued by injury have gone on to have good long injury free runs within their career. And then you've players like Heaslip who never seemed to pick up a knock and out of nowhere they're retiring early from injury.

    Injury history can be illustrative, but it's not a reliable way to calibrate future expectations. Snyman had a great profile prior to coming to Munster.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    On a large sample for a given position. If you take your approach on looking back the last year you'd have a strong argument that we should be naming a 3rd hooker in every matchday squad.

    Posters here are handwringing and basing their opinions on about a SH pulling up within 72 hours of a match. It is an event that I can never remember happening without some murmurs earlier in the week*. Basing your squad selection on that is like refusing to take an airplane.

    *adding context



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    'definitely provide significant value' - they wont though, in almost any case they would be on the bench most likely



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,597 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Injury history can be illustrative, but it's not a reliable way to calibrate future expectations

    We know that injury history is, at least, a part of that calculation tho. And that a previous injury can be a risk factor for re-occurence.

    And the larger sample size argument is imperfect as well, because what happens at the population level does that necessarily apply at the individual level.

    Post edited by Boards.ie: Mike on


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,965 ✭✭✭connachta


    Will someone finally say the truth here.

    Any and EVERY game before Scotland including South Africa is absolutely meaningless as it doesn't change anything to face N-Z or home France.

    So of course yes we have to bet on the 50% chance of Dan back for Scots and 90% back for QF. It's obvious.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol



    If you bring whichever of Baird/McCarthy/Prendergast that would likely be left out and play them in both of the first pool games then you've provided clear value by minimizing the risk of injury of one of the key players in each of those matches.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    This is another scenario where unless we are blessed by the gods a player is going to get injured during the pool games and we can just bring Dan in later. Even if we are blessed you can just say a player is injured - few players wont be carrying a knock at some point.

    I hope the management team aren't treating the squad like some here are and missing out the opportunity of squeezing every inch of value they can from it.

    This is about winning the world cup, not being best boys in class or caring about the feelings of the backups.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,137 ✭✭✭✭Foxtrol


    Nothing is perfect or we'd be able to tell the exact moment when a player would get injured which will never happen.

    Larger sample size is imperfect but far, far better than the tiny one you've chosen to base your argument on.

    Trying to derive anything from a player's injury status during a few international windows over the course of two seasons is a wild choice.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,239 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    you can use the exact same logic with 9 and it makes even more sense as there is less cover



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,762 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    Bringing specialists applies to the front row and half backs only. Porter hasn’t been injured that often. Do we just go with 2 LHs?

    Going with 3 SHs and less cover in the outside backs is a gamble. Going with 2 SHs and more cover in the outside backs is also a gamble. At least with the former you know that guys like JOB can cover multiple positions and mitigate the risk somewhat. Aki and Henshaw can both cover 13. Ringrose can go to the wing if needed. There are more mitigants in that scenario. You can’t mitigate the risks (within the squad) at all when selecting just 2 9s.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Based on the approach so far it's quite possible the coaches will _want_ the starters to play in some of the opening two matches anyway.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,886 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I would also add signs are pointing to a 19-14 split anyway and we're definitely not gonna go 20-13 so we aren't talking scrum half va backrow



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,194 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    In this years 6 nations jgp was named to start 1st game v wales but pulled out before the game with a hamstring injury that ruled him out of the French match and the subsequent Italy game. Missed 3 games and Didnt play for a month.

    What would you do in that scenario?l if you only had Murray and JGP in the squad?



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Remember also, that if you replace a player (SH) with another, you cannot then bring that first SH back in.

    So in the scenario that you go with 2 SHs and, let's say JGP picks up a two week injury versus Tonga, the choice is replace him permanently, or have a non specialist covering from either the bench or on the field (possibly JOB) in the most important pool game versus SA.

    Plus you're without JGP for the rest of the tournament

    not for me thank you very much



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,301 ✭✭✭theVersatile


    Do we not remember what happened last time we brought an unfit player to the World Cup and rushed them back? Or the implications it has had on that player to this day?

    Barring a miraculous recovery, I can't see Sheahan travelling.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,590 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Waisake naholo recovered from a broken leg in four weeks to make the RWC 15 squad.

    Maybe we should sent Dan to the Nadroumai village in Fiji

    Just sayin



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  • Registered Users Posts: 398 ✭✭CONSI


    Any update on Conans injury...he's another one thats possibly out...



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